Bill T. wrote:
> ... but I do know of specific examples
> of true believers
What standard do you use to judge that they are true believers?
> I have just spent some time reading the things at Marc D. Carpenter's
> web site (www.outsidethecamp.org). The information there is what most
> would clssify as "Hyper-Calvinism".
Really? The historic definition of Hyper-Calvinism is the set of doctrines that denies that lost sinners are responsible to believe the gospel (and thus the gospel is only to be directed toward the regenerate) and that there is a time-lapse between regeneration and conversion. I eschew such error. Please show me where you get your definition of Hyper-Calvinism.
> For the record, I do not share Mr. Carpenter's view that all Arminians
> are lost and going to Hell.
First, I want to say that I do not believe that all Arminians will go to hell; God might save some of them. They are currently unregenerate, but they are not necessarily reprobate.
So you believe that there are some Arminians who are regenerate. All Arminians believe in universal atonement, so let's focus on that, since the atonement is at the heart of the gospel. Arminians believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception. This means that they believe it is the work of the SINNER that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. And by saying that some of these people are unregenerate, you believe that they believe the same gospel you do. You believe that the work of Christ is a non-essential doctrine. This is utter blasphemy. The gospel is about the person and work of Christ. Christ is the God-Man Mediator. Christ established a righteousness that ensures the salvation of all whom He represented. This is not just some "higher knowledge" that only the mature Christians know; this is the basics of the gospel that every Christian knows.
> I would not want to belong to or support a
> church that is clearly Arminian (Methodist, many Pentacostal churches,
> and the SDA church).
So you are being schismatic by being separate from and not supporting those churches in which you believe the true gospel is preached (the gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner).
> Most people in these churches have no assurance of
> their salvation since they teach they can lose their salvation ...
Obviously, this is a belief of final glory conditioned on the works of the sinner. Obviously, they believe a false gospel. If they believed that their salvation, from regeneration to final glory, was conditioned on the work of Christ alone, they would not believe that they could lose their salvation. Yet you believe that the false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner is the same gospel you believe. I don't doubt that one bit.
> I'd agree with Mr. Carpenter in that I would not unite with them in any
> evangelical endeavors, but I am not willing to say there are no truly
> saved people among their ranks any more than I am prepared to say that
> all who call themselves Calvinists are truly saved.
Most who call themselves Calvinists are not truly saved. All who believe in salvation conditioned on the sinner are not truly saved.
> People who trust
> Christ alone for salvation are those who are saved.
What does it mean to "trust Christ alone for salvation"?
What does "trust" mean?
What does "Christ" mean?
What does "alone" mean?
What does "salvation" mean?
You believe that there are some Arminians who trust Christ alone for salvation. Arminians certainly do say that they trust Christ alone for salvation. But they are lying to themselves. They do not trust the work of Christ alone for salvation. They believe that THEY make the ultimate difference between salvation and damnation. Far from trusting Christ, they spit on His blood and make it worthless to save anyone in and of itself. This is more wicked than the most vile pervert on the face of the earth. And those who do not recognize this are just as blind.
> The denomination
> they choose for fellowship is most often influenced by interpersonal
> relationships they develop. Example: "Those people were the nicest
> people I had ever met in my life, they cared about me like no one else I
> had ever met before."
So they make their judgments based on outward appearance and personality rather than God's Testimony.
> You could speculate that a "true" (one that believes exactly as
> the denominational creed) SDA or other group member may not be truly
And why would you judge such a one lost? What is your standard?
> The gospel message itself should be
> the guide in choosing.
Yet you yourself have shown that you do not know what the gospel message is.
> As I said before, if I had to choose between being classified as either
> a Calvinist or an Arminian, I'd definitely choose Calvinism. Personally,
> I do not see the need to be called anything but "Christian".
I agree. I do not call myself a Calvinist.
> I definitely do not agree with Mr. Carpenter that salvation depends upon
> absolute doctrinal purity with Hyper-Calvinism as the guide for this
> doctrinal purity.
You falsely accuse me. I have written a piece called "Doctrinal Regeneration" to refute those who accuse us of making salvation dependent upon doctrine. Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/doctregen.htm . If we believed in salvation conditioned on doctrinal purity, we would be just as lost as you and the Arminians.
> How else were people ever saved before Calvin lived
> and even later when Hyper-Calvinists formulated their ideas about what
> Calvin believed. Calvin was not infallible.
Calvin was far from infallible. You seem to think that I follow Calvin. I do not. People were saved before Calvin the same way they were saved after Calvin. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe (Romans 1:16). In the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed (Romans 1:17). The righteousness of God is revealed apart from Law (Romans 3:21), through the propitiation and redemption of Jesus Christ (Romans 3:24-25), which shows God to be just and justifier (Romans 3:26). All who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are lost, no matter how zealous they are for God (Romans 10:2-3). All who do not stay in the doctrine of Christ are lost (2 John 9). And all who speak peace to those who bring a false gospel are lost (2 John 11). My heart's pleasure and supplication to God on behalf of these self-righteous religionists is that they be saved (Romans 10:1).
To God alone be the glory,
Marc D. Carpenter
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