Let us logically consider those who claim to believe in the efficacious atonement of Christ, who would say they agree that Christ only died for those who will be saved, yet who also believe that at least some universal atonement advocates are saved. This includes the "Calvinists" or "Sovereign Gracers" who believe that at least some Arminians are regenerate.

For the purpose of this consideration, let us call the "Calvinist" who considers at least some Arminians to be his brothers and sisters in Christ "TC" (for "Tolerant Calvinist").

Let us assume that TC believes that all regenerate people believe the gospel. There are certainly some TC's who do not believe this (such as the Primitive Baptists who believe that a regenerate person can go for a period of time being completely ignorant of the gospel and even believing a false gospel and worshiping a false god before they are "converted"), showing that they are unregenerate (see the review "The Irrelevant Gospel" in the May 2001 issue of Outside the Camp). But what of TC who believes that all saved people believe the gospel?

Consider: (1) TC believes that some who believe universal atonement are saved. (2) TC believes that all saved people believe the gospel. Thus, (3) TC believes that some who believe universal atonement believe the gospel.

What does this show about TC's belief about the gospel? Since TC believes a person can believe the gospel and believe universal atonement at the same time, then he must believe that the gospel does not include the efficacious atonement of Jesus Christ. TC has just denied the very heart of the gospel.

If that were not clear enough, let us go further. Suppose now that TC would agree with us that universal atonement means that Christ's death did not actually accomplish pardon, redemption, propitiation, and reconciliation. This is not an unreasonable supposition; many, if not most, TC's would agree that this is what universal atonement means (just read Gordon Clark's The Atonement). In fact, some TC's would even go so far as to say that universal atonement is a false gospel, yet they say in the same breath that some who hold to universal atonement are regenerate (just talk to the pastors in the Protestant Reformed Churches).

Now consider: (1) TC believes that some who believe universal atonement believe the gospel. (2) TC believes that universal atonement means that Christ's death did not actually accomplish pardon, redemption, propitiation, and reconciliation. Thus, (3) TC believes that some who believe that Christ's death did not actually accomplish pardon, redemption, propitiation, and reconciliation believe the gospel.

What does this now say about what TC thinks about the gospel? TC believes that the gospel is made up of certain doctrines. TC also believes that some who believe that Christ's death did not actually accomplish pardon, redemption, propitiation, and reconciliation believe the gospel. Thus, TC does NOT believe that the gospel includes the doctrine that Christ's death actually accomplished pardon, redemption, propitiation, and reconciliation. TC does NOT believe that the gospel includes the doctrine that Christ's blood actually atoned. TC denies that The Atonement is part of the gospel. And in doing so, TC denies the very gospel itself. TC shows that he has no idea what the gospel is. He shows that he is just as unregenerate as the universal atonement advocate is.

Finally, consider the following logic: (1) All who believe a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner are unregenerate. (2) Universal atonement is a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. Thus, (3) all who believe universal atonement are unregenerate. TC and every person who would consider at least some universal atonement advocates to be regenerate MUST disagree with #3. And the only way people can disagree with #3 is if they disagree with at least one of the first two statements. Consider those who disagree with #1. These are people who believe that at least some who believe a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner are regenerate. Can a true Christian disagree with #1? Of course not. Consider those who disagree with #2. These are people who believe that universal atonement is not a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. Can a true Christian disagree with #2? Of course not. Thus, all who disagree with #3 (all who consider at least some universal atonement advocates to be saved) are unregenerate.

It is no wonder that God says that anyone who speaks peace to a person who brings a false gospel is unregenerate (2 John 11). Those who say that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception deny that the death of Christ actually pardoned, redeemed, propitiated, and reconciled. They deny that Christ's blood actually atoned. They deny that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. They deny the very heart of the gospel. They boast and glory in themselves. They are God-haters. And those who speak peace to these God-haters, who call them brothers and sisters in Christ, who say that the universal atonement advocates believe the same gospel they do, show that they, too, deny the true gospel. They deny that the atoning, pardoning, redeeming, propitiating, reconciling blood of Christ is an essential part of the gospel. They, too, do not believe the gospel. They, too, are boasters who glory in the sinner. They, too, are God-haters.


DataRat:

<<"those who claim to believe in the efficacious atonement of Christ, who would say they agree that Christ only died for those who will be saved, yet who also believe that at least some universal atonement advocates are saved"

False dilemma.

We're only saying that immature, newbie Christians maintain serious doctrinal error.

Scripture clearly teaches sanctification as a process of doctrinal development. God's Word speaks against your hyper-Calvinism !

"let us call the 'Calvinist' who considers at least some Arminians to be his brothers and sisters in Christ"

Sometimes this is through ignorance of what Arminianism actually stands for. Other times it's a simple 'rookie mistake'.

NOBODY has complete doctrinal perfection. We're not totally sanctified in this life !

Yes, anybody who has been Christian for several years, and who really understands what Arminianism is about, who supposes semi-Pelagians to be "brothers" is in grave error.

But as long as they themselves believe they're saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, they number among the regenerate Elect !

"believes a person can believe the gospel and believe universal atonement at the same time, then he must believe that the gospel does not include the efficacious atonement of Jesus Christ"

While the Lord doesn't leave His chosen ones in theological ignorance, doctrinal sanctification is -well- part of sanctification (and NOT conversion).

The only requirement for conversion being the empty hand of faith. Even understanding Declarative Righteousness ISN'T required ! Just having saving faith suffices to save the person.

Now, any Believer not being sanctified subsequent to their conversion has reason for questioning the genuineness of that conversion (and us questioning it, too).

Yet salvation is through the instrumentality of a gifted faith ONLY ...and it doesn't necessarily include sophisticated theological insights !

As a gift, gifted faith requires only our receiving it. We don't have to also understand it.

"All who believe a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner are unregenerate"

Pure hyper-Calvinism !

This is like saying we are unregenerate if we're not morally perfected.

It's the hyper-Calvinist version of Wesleyan perfectionism ! ( Except Wesley taught a person could become perfect ...not had to. )

Regeneration being sub rosa and unconscious it illuminates and heals the mind rather than fills it with data.

Conversion is only acting upon the repentance this creates. No greater knowledge required than one's a sinner in need of The Savior. No doctrinal test involved.

If it wasn't a gifted faith that saves, this might not be the case. But it is !

The DataRat>>

Oh, okay, Mr. Rat - so the "newbie Christians" can maintain such serious doctrinal error as not believing in the deity of Christ? Not believing that that Christ died on the cross? Not believing justification by grace through faith? Hey, maybe they can maintain such serious doctrinal error as not even believing God exists, huh? After all, it's only doctrine, right? And Christians gradually grow in doctrinal sanctification, right? So welcome all your Mormon and JW and Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, DataRat. As far as perfectionism goes, I'll post something on that soon, the Lord willing.

Marc


Hi, everybody. I just got back on the internet after about a week off the computer (I only get on sporadically, mostly on weekends), so I haven't had time to go through all the posts on this list, but I want to respond to one particular thing I saw several times.

John L wrote:

"Let me say I have tried to follow some of the confusing threads of messages on the condemnation of all Arminians to hell by a select few or probably at least Mark (and btw datarat it was Mark who wrote the quote below in blue). ... Marc would have me burning in hell at this point, but I do not see the Scriptures making this distinction. ... I cannot condemn to hell all people who claim to be Christians but may end up dying before they fly the TULIP flag over their house."

I have never condemned anyone to hell. I challenge anyone to give evidence of this. You will not be able to find any. I do not know if any particular person who is now dead is in hell, and I do not know if any particular person who is now alive will go to hell. I will paste below a post I made to another list. And please read http://www.outsidethecamp.org/fte34.htm .

To God alone be the glory,

Marc

---------------------

The distinction between reprobate (non-elect) and unregenerate (unsaved) is important here. There's no one I know or ever heard of who judges people to be reprobate (that their names are not written in the book of life). So really, to say that we are not to judge another man's eternal state is certainly true but doesn't really help, because nobody does that. (We have been accused of doing that, of "condemning people to hell," of "judging people to be reprobate," but that just comes from people ignorant of what we believe.) On the other hand, Christians are commanded to make judgments of a person's spiritual state. When a Christian judges a person to be unregenerate (unsaved, lost, wicked, God-hater, etc.), he is not saying that this person's name is not written in the book of life. There are many unregenerate people walking around right now whose names are written in the book of life. They are the unregenerate elect. And Christians are commanded to judge them to be unregenerate and to witness to them and to pray for them and to not be unequally yoked with them. When a Christian judges a person to be unregenerate, he doesn't know if that unregenerate person is one of the elect or one of the reprobate. It's not for him to know, and it's not for him to judge an unregenerate person to be reprobate. Now a Christian can say that if the person continues in his unregenerate state until death, he will show himself to be a reprobate and will go to hell. But who knows when God converts someone on his deathbed? Thus, I stay away from saying that dead people who were heretics or other evil men during their lives are definitely in hell. I don't know if God converted them on their deathbeds. John Wesley was an arch-heretic, but I don't know if God converted him on his deathbed. Charles Spurgeon was a compromising spiritual whore, but I don't know if God converted him on his deathbed. Hitler and Stalin were evil men, but I don't know if God converted them on their deathbeds. Maybe some of you on this list know more than I do about what people believed the moment they died, but I don't.

So Christians ARE to judge unregenerate people to be unregenerate, but they are NOT to judge unregenerate people to be reprobate.

"He put before them another parable, saying: The kingdom of Heaven is compared to a man sowing good seed in his fields. But while the men were sleeping, one hostile to him came and sowed darnel in the midst of the wheat, and went away. And when the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the darnel also appeared. And coming near, the slaves of the housemaster said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then from where does it have the darnel? And he said to them, A man, an enemy did this. And the slaves said to him, Do you desire, then, that going out we should gather them? But he said, No, lest gathering the darnel you should uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest. And in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather the darnel, and bind them into bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary." (Mat 13:24-30 LITV)

Note that this parable cannot contradict 1 Corinthians 5, in which Paul commands the church to "put out the evil one from you" (v. 13) and "purge out the old leaven" (v. 7). Thus, when the housemaster told the slaves not to gather the darnel, he was NOT talking about purging the leaven from the church. And this parable cannot contradict the command to judge, not be unequally yoked with unbelievers, etc. In my opinion, this is talking about judging someone to be reprobate. Notice first that the slaves are different than the reapers. Now notice in verse 27, the slaves recognize that the tares are tares. They judge the tares to be tares. The slaves then ask the housemaster if they are to uproot those whom they have judged to be tares. (Note that this cannot be talking about excommunication.) The housemaster says that this is not their job, because by judging all these tares to be unregenerate and also judging them to be reprobate, they would

be in danger of uprooting some of the wheat with the tares. It is the job of the reapers at the end of the age to separate the wheat from the tares.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


DataRat charges me with being a hyper-Calvinist. The definition of hyper-calvinism depends on who's defining it. Historically, hyper-calvinism has mainly been the view that God does not command all without exception to repent and believe and that all without exception do not have a duty to repent and believe. I do not hold to this view. I believe that all without exception are commanded to repent and believe and all without exception have a duty to repent and believe. Another characteristic that has been come to known as hyper-calvinism is the view (mainly espoused by Primitive Baptists) that there can be a lapse of time, even days, months, or years, between regeneration and conversion. Thus, there are regenerate people who do not believe the gospel and are even in staunch opposition to the gospel. I do not hold to this view. In fact, I exposed and repudiated this view in a review entitled "The Irrelevant Gospel" at www.outsidethecamp.org/review52.htm . Thus far, I've shown that I do not believe in any of the tenets of commonly-defined hyper-calvinism. However, there is one more part of some people's definition, which is a much more recent addition: Some say that hyper-calvinism includes the belief that God does not desire the salvation of the reprobate and that there is no such thing as "common grace." In this case, I admit that I believe both of these. God does not desire the salvation of the reprobate, and there is no such monstrosity as common grace. See www.outsidethecamp.org/commongrace.htm .

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


DataRat wrote:

<< Genuine saving faith brings with it basics like the existence of God, Christ's deity, and some understanding of Substitutionary Atonement. But there's typically no comprehensive knowledge of advanced theological doctrines ...nor are these required for conversion. Conversion ain't an end-of-the-semester test at Seminary ! >>

The doctrines of the gospel are basic. They are not some "higher theology" that only seminarians can understand. The atonement is a basic gospel doctrine. Without it, there is no gospel. Christ's atonement actually atoned. It's not rocket science. All who believe in universal atonement do not believe that Christ's atonement actually atoned. Simple. "Advanced theological doctrine?" Hardly.

Marc


DataRat:

<<"Hence the Apostles taught these doctrines in the New Testament to people already Christians"

To which the Calvinist Rodent might add: The Old Testament saints had only the most vague notions of Christological and soteriological doctrines.

Often, like Job, their faith amounted to no more than:

"I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last He will take His stand on the earth" (Job 19:25 NASB)

Or, in the Proto-Evangel, the bare promise of Someone to strike the Serpent and remove the curse.

Yet these Old Testament saints were redeemed by Christ without sophisticated doctrinal knowledge!

Bro. Rat>>

The Atonement is not "sophisticated doctrinal knowledge." It is BASIC doctrinal knowledge.

Marc


Ray wrote:

<< It is unfortunate but clear that Mr. Carpenter's statements stand in clear contrast to total depravity. All men are prone to hate God and their neighbour. No creature knows God aright, rather they follow their own perverse nature. This is something the Christian fights with every day. The mortification of the old man and the quickening of the new. O wretched man that I am , who shall deliver me from the body of this death. By nature we are indeed Arminians doctrinally. >>

Oh - so Ray believes that the believer continues to be totally depraved after regeneration? This is heresy. Regeneration (also known as the new birth) is that grace in which the Holy Spirit brings a sinner from spiritual death to spiritual life, takes away his old heart and old spirit, implants within him a new heart and a new spirit, and indwells him. He is made a new creation, dead to sin and alive to God in Jesus Christ, so that he is no longer totally depraved and no longer serves sin.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


DataRat:

<<"then that would mean even at the point I believed Arminianism I was still saved"

Quite so.

The test of conversion ISN'T complete doctrinal knowledge at the time of conversion.

Instead: Whether the Lord sanctifies the convert throughout the course of their Christian life.

Those who didn't have a true conversion won't receive moral and doctrinal sanctification !

Your Pal,

The DataRat>>

So DataRat agrees with JohnL that at the point JohnL believed in universal atonement, he was still saved. DataRat believes that universal atonement is not the antithesis to the gospel. In fact, he believes that a believer in universal atonement believes the same gospel he believes. Universal atonement is one of the most blatant versions of salvation conditioned on the sinner. Both JohnL and DataRat believe that a regenerate person can believe in salvation conditioned on the sinner and then "gets sanctified" into believing in salvation conditioned on Christ alone. This is a denial of the gospel.

Marc


DataRat:

<<The Reformed Rodent would like to emphasize that the viewpoints held by Outside the Camp and Mr. Carpenter are NOT those of mainstream, orthodox, normative, and historical Calvinism !

Scripture teaches Progressive Sanctification.

THIS being the Calvinist position.Outside the Camp teaches a Calvinistic equivalent of the Arminian false doctrine of Entire Sanctification.

Whereas the Arminians suppose that a person can become totally morally sanctified in this life, Outside the Camp believes in total doctrinal sanctification upon conversion !

Did Moses know about Unconditional Election ?

Was Abram familiar with Particular Atonement ?

What was the extent of David's understanding of Christ's dual natures ?

Are these great Old Testament saints in hell right now because they didn't meet Outside the Camp's hyper-Calvinist standards of theological knowledge for being converted ?

The OT saints died not having a clue about some of the soteric and Christological doctrines we are privileged to have explained to us in the NT !

Even the elect angels long to see how the Lord is working salvation among men.

Conversion ain't an end-of the-semester theology test at Seminary !

El Raton de los Datos>>

I do not believe that a person becomes completely errorless at conversion. This is a misrepresentation at best and slander at worst. Christians grow in doctrinal knowledge. But there is some doctrine that every believer believes upon conversion. It's called THE GOSPEL. See www.outsidethecamp.org/egd.htm for essential gospel doctrine. Regarding the Old Testament saints: They believed the same gospel the New Testament saints believe: The good news of salvation conditioned solely on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of the Messiah. Romans 4.

Marc


coobell2003 wrote:

<<Hey John L,

Are you here to defend Arminians?

They hate the God of the Bible and His Gospel. Arminians are illogical, contradicting heretics because they do not know what they
believe and they certainly do not believe the Gospel (same as the Tolerant, Compromising Calvinist). Ignorance is not an excuse for
not believing the Gospel

"For I bear record to them that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they, being ignorant of God's righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God (Rom 10:2-3)".>>

John L wrote:

<<What I am here to defend are the propositional truths in Scripture i.e. "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" Acts 16:31. No mention is made of understanding EVERY point on soteriology.

Romans 10 says if we confess with our mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead" we shall be saved. No mention is made of understanding every point of soteriology.

Mark 16 mentions whoever believes and is baptized (I am not advocating the position one must be baptized to be saved) will be saved. Whoever does not believe shall be condemned." It does not say "whoever knows all the finer points of soteriology shall be saved and whoever doesn't shall be condemned.>>

John L,

What does it MEAN to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"? What does it MEAN to "confess with our mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead?"

Is the ATONEMENT one of the "finer points of soteriology" that is a take-it-or-leave-it doctrine? Or does believing in the Lord Jesus Christ NECESSARILY believing in the atonement?

Marc


Hi, John L -

So you say that you "condemn Arminianism AS A SYSTEM but not all people." So you believe ArminianISM to be a heresy, but not all ArminiANS are unregenerate, eh?

How about BuddhISM? MormonISM? HinduISM? Roman CatholicISM? ArianISM? CampbellISM? RusselISM? SatanISM? Do you just believe that these SYSTEMS are heresy, but some of those who hold to these systems are regenerate?

Marc


Hey, DataRat:

Since you believe that some universal atonement advocates are merely "less sanctified" Christians, why could this not be applied to Wesley? Couldn't Wesley have merely been less further along on the doctrinal sanctification path?

Marc


Thank you, John L, for answering my questions. This is a very good starting point. Now I'd just like to flesh out where you're coming from.

<<Yeah surely you are not claiming omnisicience to know that all who use Arminian phraseology (even Jesus said "come unto me all you who are weary and heavy laden" Matt 11:28 I believe) believe 100% that their choice saved them? Only God would know this. Your claim they are all lost is tantamount to saying "gee God move over on the throne now there are two of us.">>

Hmmm ... let's think about this for a moment.

First, you are implying that Christ used Arminian phraseology in Matthew 11:28. This is nothing of the sort. Christ calls the weary and heavy laden to come. This is Biblical phraseology, not Arminian phraseology. Arminian phraseology is "Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception." Let's concentrate on the atonement, shall we? After all, the atonement is at the very heart of the gospel. Now I would say that anyone who confesses that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception is unregenerate. Am I claiming omniscience? Let's think about this. I am judging certain people to be lost because of what they believe. If this is claiming omniscience, then everyone who judges certain people to be lost because of what they believe are claiming omniscience. Thus, if you judge everyone who believes in Islam to be lost, you are claiming omniscience. This makes no sense. In fact, as we will see below, you do judge certain kinds of people to be lost. Are you then claiming omniscience by saying that Buddhists, Mormons, Hindus, and Arians are lost? Think about it. Your argument about claiming omniscience doesn't hold water.

<<Buddhism doesn't believe in the Trinity. Poor example please try again. MormonISM? Doesn't believe in the Trinity please find a better example. HinduISM? Not even close come on Marc you can do better than that!! ... ArianISM? False concept of Jesus. Not even close.>>

Okay. Let's flesh this out. You're saying that Buddhists and Mormons and Hindus are lost because they don't believe in the Trinity, correct? So here are some questions for you:

(1) Is the doctrine of the Trinity an essential gospel doctrine?

(2) Are all who do not believe in the Trinity unregenerate?

(3) Are all who are ignorant of the Trinity unregenerate?

(4) Are all Buddhists and Mormons and Hindus without exception unregenerate?

(5) What about a person who says he was a regenerate person and believed the gospel when he was a Buddhist (or a Mormon or a Hindu) and later "came into" ("grew into") the truth about the Trinity without being regenerated? What would you say about that person's spiritual state and his understanding of what the gospel is?

You're also saying that Arians are lost because they have a false concept of Jesus, correct? So here are some questions for you:

(6) Is the doctrine of the person of Christ an essential gospel doctrine?

(7) Are all who have a false concept of Jesus unregenerate?

(8) Are all who are ignorant of the person of Christ, even though they might name the name of Christ and say they believe in Christ, unregenerate?

(9) Are all Arians without exception unregenerate?

(10) What about a person who says he was a regenerate person and believed the gospel when he was an Arian, and then later "came into" ("grew into") the truth about the person of Christ without being regenerated? What would you say about that person's spiritual state and his understanding of what the gospel is?'

<<Roman CatholicISM? Now you are getting a little closer but I suppose you and coolbell are equal in terms of the pontiff on Non-Arminian theology. So all Rom Catholics are off to hell no possible way to believe in the Trinity the Virgin Birth and PRIVATELY disagree with Rom Cath hierarchy on soteriology.>>

Hmmmm ... How about Jehovah's Witnesses who privately disagree with their leadership on the person of Christ? How about Muslims who privately disagree with their leadership? Or Mormons?

Do you believe that all who believe that Mary is mediatrix or co-redemptrix are unregenerate?

By the way, once again, I am not saying that any of these people are "off to hell." Read the post on unregenerate vs. reprobate again. All I am saying (and the Bible says it) is that they are currently unregenerate. Some might be unregenerate elect. And we know for sure that if they are unregenerate elect, then at some point while they are here on the earth, God will save them, and they will no longer be Buddhists, Mormons, Arians, or Roman Catholics.

<< You and Coolbell are it and we just need to check with on where people will spend eternity.>>

Wrong again. We do not judge where people will spend eternity. See the previous paragraph.

<<All poor examples of a comparision to Arminianism.>>

Okay. So you're saying that these other systems, compared to Arminianism, are false gospels, correct? So you do not believe that Arminianism is a false gospel, correct? You believe that universal atonement is not a false gospel, correct?

Thanks for the dialogue.

Marc


Marc:

<<What does it MEAN to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"? What does it MEAN to "confess with our mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead?">>

John L:

<<It means just what the text says it means.>>

Okay. What does the text say it means?

I'll give you a little help: Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ means believing in the PERSON of Jesus Christ (God-Man Mediator) and in the WORK of Jesus Christ (the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ that demands and ensures the salvation of everyone whom He represented).

John L:

<<Can you go down into a person's heart to see if they are regenerate?>>

Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/rightjudg.htm .

Their confession is a window to their heart. Please read the following passage very carefully to see the relationship between the mouth and the heart:

Luk 6:44 For each tree is known from its own fruit. For they do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush.

Luk 6:45 The good man brings forth good out of the good treasure of his heart. And the evil man brings forth evil out of the evil treasure of his heart, for his mouth speaks out of the abundance of his heart.

<<All I am saying which is getting by-passed (sometimes I think on purpose!) is that a person may genuinely be regenerate and believe in the right Jesus, and other fundamentals but he or she may not have worked out the finer points of soteriology.>>

I have not bypassed this at all. Once again: The atonement is not one of the "finer points of soteriology." It is the very heart of the gospel. If you get the atonement wrong, you get the gospel wrong. How can one believe in the "right Jesus" and also believe that Jesus's blood atoned for those burning in hell? You believe that the universal atonement jesus is the "right Jesus."

<<Question a person says to you "I am trusting in Christ alone for my salvation. You ask them "do you believe your choice saves you?" and they say "no". Now what do you do? I'll tell you what you and coolbell would do, you would automatically say they are presently unregenerate.>>

What???? Of course I wouldn't automatically say that they are presently unregenerate! Where in the world did you get that from? I'd reserve judgment and ask more questions.

Now if someone comes to me and confesses that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception, then I (and every true Christian) WILL judge that person to be unregenerate. If he says that he believes that his salvation is all of Christ, I would ask him what makes the difference between salvation and damnation. If he says that he believes it is the work of Christ alone, I would then point out that he believes that Christ did the same for those in hell as those in heaven. And once we get down to where the rubber meets the road, he will have to admit that it is his own effort that makes the difference between salvation and damnation.

Marc


<<Sovchsr laughs:

Check this quote out from Marc:

>>>>I hope Chip does not believe Arminians will be in heaven. Only True Regenerate Christians who believe the Gopel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone will be in heaven.>>>>

Quote from Marc? Where did I make this quote? At whom is Sovchsr laughing?

<<It looks to me like you are promoting a WORKS Salvation Marc. For you it is not a man keeping the Law. Rather it is his Learning the Law. Both are works.>>

Sovchsr, I believe you are confusing prerequisites/conditions of salvation with necessary fruits of salvation. I've never said that any faith or belief in any doctrine is a prerequisite or condition of salvation. I have said that faith/belief/knowledge of certain doctrine is an immediate and inevitable FRUIT of salvation. There is a world of difference.

Please see the article "Doctrinal Regeneration" at www.outsidethecamp.org/doctregen.htm .

So, Sovchsr, let's apply your logic to a Jehovah's Witness. I say that all JWs are unregenerate, since they do not believe in the deity of Christ. You would say that I am making belief in the deity of Christ a work, and thus I am an Arminian. See the logic?

Do you judge JW's to be unregenerate? Then, according to your logic, you're an Arminian, since you're making belief in the deity of Christ a conditional work!

Thus, you would have to say that anyone who judges anyone to be unregenerate is an Arminian, since the basis upon which that person has judged another person to be lost is a work! Wow. Quite illogical and irrational.

This kind of accusation (of holding to works salvation) has been leveled at us before. You can find my response to this accusation at www.outsidethecamp.org/credenda.htm .

I also encourage you to read a review of "Are All Arminians Unsaved?" at www.outsidethecamp.org/review81(1).htm .

Marc


<<To follow your Logic, would be to say that one who is truely regenerate NEVER has to repent of anything. As if, one who is really saved NEVER sins. Or maybe Heresy is not a sin for you.And I must admit, I get the sense that you believe that you, or someone TRUELY Regenerate, like you, never makes the wrong choice. Now let me ask you, Do you believe PERFECTLY >>>>EVERY<<<< Doctrine of Scripture? Or does the regenerating of the Spirit only give you a perfect understanding of particular doctrines? And of course I suppose the verse that says, "let him that is without sin(Perfectly understanding ALL Doctrine), cast the first stone".>>

Please see "Some Form of Perfectionism?" at www.outsidethecamp.org/letters72(2).htm

<<Keep promoting WORKS of Understanding!>>

So do you believe that there are regenerate people who have no understanding of the person and work of Christ? Are there regenerate atheists? Are there regenerate Arians? If you say no, then are YOU promoting WORKS of understanding? Again, see the previous post regarding the difference between prerequisites and fruits.

Marc


John L wrote:

<<You are taking a polytheistic religion and comparing it to a monotheistic belief and saying "see they are similar". That is nuts!!!>>

Okay. Let's take a solidly monotheistic religion -- ISLAM. They are staunchly monotheistic. In fact, they say that a belief that Jesus Christ is God is evidence that Christians are polytheists and idolaters. So what does monotheism prove?

Arminians believe in one God. So does Satan and the demons. So what! They believe in some God-man they call Jesus. But is He the Jesus that saves His people from their sins? Is He the Jesus that actually atoned for the sins of everyone He represented, actually accomplished salvation? My Jesus and the Arminian "Jesus" are two different people. And what you and all others who think you were saved while in Arminianism DO NOT believe that the Arminian "Jesus" is a different Jesus than the Christian Jesus. You do not believe that your former religion was a difference in KIND and not just a difference in DEGREE. There's the rub.

Marc


I just want to make some things very clear.

Ed wrote:

<<It seems to me that your position is they are not saved untill they come to an understanding first. That becomes a salvation of works which is just as bad as Arminianism.>>

Ed, have you read any of the articles that I recommended? This will answer your question. Understanding is NOT a prerequisite or condition of salvation; understanding is an IMMEDIATE and NECESSARY FRUIT of salvation.

Let's look at the logic of your statement. You would agree that all who do not believe in the deity of Christ are lost, right? Well, using your logic, you would have to say this: "It seems to me that your position is that they are not saved until they come to an understanding of the deity of Christ. That becomes a salvation of works which is just as bad as Arminianism." See the flawed logic? There is a certain understanding that comes as a RESULT of regeneration. It is an understanding of THE GOSPEL. Belief of the gospel is NOT -- I repeat -- is NOT a prerequisite/condition of regeneration; it is the FRUIT or RESULT of regeneration. Do you get the distinction? PLEASE read www.outsidethecamp.org/doctregen.htm and www.outsidethecamp.org/credenda.htm .

<<I had written a paper called "Christ our Savior". This is one last response to those that claim that only those that believe in Calvinism are saved.>>

Ed, NO ONE on this list that I know of (at least the ones who have posted) claims that only those who believe in Calvinism are saved. NO ONE! So you're refuting no one!

What we believe is that only those who believe in THE GOSPEL are saved!!

PLEASE see www.outsidethecamp.org/letters44.htm .

Ed, these are two areas in which you have misrepresented us. You have first said that our position is one of salvation by works. You have then said that we claim that only those who believe in Calvinism are saved. Neither is true. If you wish to refute our position, then please represent our position correctly.

Marc


John L wrote:

<<Yes but in speech they are SOMETIMES using your exact vocabulary "Christ died for me Christ ACTUALLY SAVED ME". So if they use your vocab believe in the Trinity and perhaps are confused you condemn them as lost. THat is omniscience. You don't know 100% (again broken record Marc keeps ignoring Apollos in Acts who didn't have it all down but was saved) if regeneration has occured. with you guys it's the tulip or nothing at the point of conversion. That's nonsense. Your system borders on a "Jesus plus knowledge" to be saved.>>

Sigh. How many times do I have to make a distinction between knowledge as a PREREQUISITE/CONDITION and knowledge as a FRUIT/EVIDENCE of salvation? Do you get the difference, or are you that dense?

Do you believe that there is certain knowledge that EVERY SINGLE BELIEVER knows? If you do, then you would have to tell yourself, "Your system borders on a 'Jesus plus knowledge' to be saved." PLEASE read www.outsidethecamp.org/doctregen.htm and www.outsidethecamp.org/credenda.htm . Do you understand these articles? Do you understand what I am saying regarding knowledge? I'm wondering if you're really even grasping this very basic difference.

<<No you think about totally different religion or a cult. Your argument about claiming omniscience doesn't hold water.>>

Okay. So you don't think Arminianism is a totally different religion. That's clear. Yet you do claim to know the state of people's hearts who are in a different religion or a cult. How can you claim to know the state of their hearts without being omniscient?

Now for the questions I asked you:

[Marc] (1) Is the doctrine of the Trinity an essential gospel doctrine?

[John] <<Yes. Don't you agree?>>

[Marc] (2) Are all who do not believe in the Trinity unregenerate?

[John] <<Yes.>>

[Marc] (3) Are all who are ignorant of the Trinity unregenerate?

[John] <<Yes.>>

Okay. Good. I agree with your answers. Now some follow-ups:

(11) Do you believe that salvation is by "Jesus plus a knowledge of the Trinity"?

(12) Prove from Scripture that the Trinity is an essential gospel doctrine.

(13) Is a knowledge of the Trinity a prerequisite to salvation, or is it a fruit of salvation?

(14) Does God give a person a knowledge of the Trinity immediately upon regeneration?

(15) Why can't a regenerate person be ignorant of the Trinity as a new Christian and then "grow into" believing the Trinity? Why isn't this a matter of "doctrinal sanctification," as DataRat would say?

Back to the old questions:

[Marc] (5) What about a person who says he was a regenerate person and believed the gospel when he was a Buddhist (or a Mormon or a Hindu) and later "came into" ("grew into") the truth about the Trinity without being regenerated?

[John] <<I do not believe this can happen.>>

Really?? You believe that it is impossible for a person to say such a thing? Okay, for the sake of this discussion, IF a person said such a thing, what is the state of that person's heart. Remember that this person CURRENTLY professes the true gospel, but he ALSO says that he remained a Buddhist for a time after regeneration.

And another follow-up question: What would you say about a person who CURRENTLY professes the true gospel but ALSO says that there are some regenerate Buddhists, Mormons, and Hindus?

Now on to the old questions:

[Marc] (6) Is the doctrine of the person of Christ an essential gospel doctrine?

[John] <<Yes.>>

[Marc] (7) Are all who have a false concept of Jesus unregenerate?

[John] <<Hmmm please define more what you mean by false concept? Are you talking his nature? Are you talking knowledge of the tulip after salvation occuring magically at the moment of conversion? Are you talking JEsus was rich? Are you talking about the whacky doctrine popular in both Reformed and Arminian circles that has Jesus separated from the Father on the cross?>>

I'm talking about His person -- that He is both God and man.

[Marc] (9) Are all Arians without exception unregenerate?

[John] <<If they truly believe Arianism?>>

Of course. Why would they be called Arians if they didn't believe in Arianism? Why would someone be called an Arminian if he didn't believe in Arminianism? Words mean things.

[Marc] (10) What about a person who says he was a regenerate person and believed the gospel when he was an Arian, and then later "came into" ("grew into") the truth about the person of Christ without being regenerated?

[John] <<A person may initially have a SOCIAL TIE to an organization but secretly believe the opposite. If they are saved they will eventually leave an organization that denies the Trinity (which Arians do but ARminians do not) What would you say about that person's spiritual state and his understanding of what the gospel is?' What is this 20 questions? I do not know 100% the answer.>>

It's not 20 questions yet, but it might get there.

So you're not sure of the answer to this question. So you think it is possible for a regenerate person to say that he remained an Arian for a period of time after regeneration and then "grew into" the truth that Jesus is both God and man.

<<What if they were talking to you and said Marc Carpenter I believe everythig you say and every WHACKO thing on outside the camp but I have family in the JW Kingdom Hall I will try to reach by staying there a couple of weeks? ow about Muslims who privately disagree with their leadership? Or Mormons? Don't know do you know the answer to these questions?>>

I'm talking about people who are JWs and Mormons and Muslims -- they believe in JWism and Mormonism and Islam.

[Marc] Do you believe that all who believe that Mary is mediatrix or co-redemptrix are unregenerate?

[John] <<Don't know? Sounds like God has given you the answer. BUt surely you're not into "Hearing His voice" are you? Would you be confident enough to bet your eternal soul on it?>>

Wow. Now this is VERY telling. You do not know if all who believe that Mary is mediatrix are unregenerate! You believe that IT IS POSSIBLE that SOME who believe that Mary is mediatrix are regenerate! You do not know if all who believe Mary is co-redemptrix are unregenerate! You believe that IT IS POSSIBLE that SOME who believe that Mary is co-redemptrix are regenerate!! NO WONDER you believe that some Arminians, universal atonement advocates, could be regenerate!! This makes it very clear! You are not confident that every person who believes that MARY IS CO-REDEMPTRIX is lost!!!! These people believe in TWO redeemers, and you are not confident that every one of them is lost!!! These people blaspheme the ONE TRUE REDEEMER and set Mary up as ANOTHER REDEEMER, and you are not confident that every one of them is lost!!! John, you are so incredibly blind and wicked, it is mind-boggling.

As far as the answer to your question -- I AM AS SURE AS MY OWN ETERNAL SOUL that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who believes that Mary is mediatrix or co-redemptrix is AS LOST AS THE MOST VILE HOMOSEXUAL PERVERT ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH. They are JUST AS LOST AS YOU ARE.

<<If they die without all of the Reformed vocabulary they are lost correct?>>

NOT CORRECT AT ALL, John. I have NEVER said that if they die without all of the "Reformed vocabulary" they are lost. That is ABSOLUTELY NOT what I believe. You are really good at misrepresenting our position. I COULDN'T CARE LESS if they have "all of the Reformed vocabulary"!!!!!! Is that clear enough for you, John? I DO NOT JUDGE a person to be lost just because he doesn't have "all of the Reformed vocabulary"!!! That makes NO DIFFERENCE!!! What I base my judgments on is THE GOSPEL. Got it? NOT "Reformed vocabulary." THE GOSPEL.

I asked this:

Okay. So you're saying that these other systems, compared to Arminianism, are false gospels, correct? So you do not believe that Arminianism is a false gospel, correct? You believe that universal atonement is not a false gospel, correct?

You did not answer.

Please answer.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc


sovereignchaser wrote:

<<Mark do you Love Arminians as Christ Commanded?>>

I certainly do. I love them enough to tell them that they are lost and their deeds are evil, and I proclaim the true gospel to them.

If a doctor knows that a patient has a deadly disease and knows the cure, would it be loving for that doctor to tell the patient that everything is alright? Of course not. It would be hatred. The loving thing for the doctor to do would be to tell the patient that he has a deadly disease and then tell him of the cure.

Those who speak peace to Arminians, who call them brothers in Christ, who do not tell them that they are lost and their deeds are evil, are actually the unloving ones. They are the ones who HATE the Arminians by telling them that everything is okay with their souls. To tell a lost person that he is lost and then proclaim the gospel to him is the most loving thing he can do.

<<Do you exert as much effort to get Gods message out to Arminians as you do Muslims?>>

I actually exert more effort to get God's message out to Arminians.

<<And how should one go about "restoring to the faith" a heretic who was never saved in the first place? Galations seems a pretty stupid proposition if one cannot be restored.>>

Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/galatians.htm .

<<Funny too that OTCs' position is that "common gracers", which I am NOT, are all Hell Bound, or Bound in Hell already>>

I think we already went over this. Saying that someone is unregenerate is NOT saying that this person is necessarily going to hell.

<<You have swapped Circumcision of the heart for Circumcision of the head(the upper head that is).>>

This comes from the erroneous dichotomy between "head" and "heart" that comes from romanticism, not the Bible. In the Bible, the HEART is what thinks, understands, believes, etc.

<<Does not the writter proclaim that we may BOLDLY enter in? And that REGARDLESS of "UNDERSTANDING".>>

How may one boldly enter in without understanding? Those who have a zeal but not according to KNOWLEDGE are lost (Romans 10:2). Those who are IGNORANT of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are lost (Romans 10:3). The idolaters have no KNOWLEDGE (Isaiah 45:20).

Marc


sovereignchaser wrote:

<<1st. Romans 10 is dealing with Isrealites who are ignorant of the righteousness that was revealed back in Chapter 3.>>

Correct. And it applies to anyone who is ignorant of the righteousness that was revealed in Chapter 3. The righteousness of God in Chapter 3 shows God to be just and justifier through the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. Universal atonement advocates are ignorant of the righteousness of God that shows God to be just and justifier through the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. They do not know how God is both a just God and a Savior; instead, they pray to a god who cannot save (Isaiah 45:20-21).

<<The same process laid out clearly in Jn 3. to one who had plenty of KNOWLEDGE. Nick the Pharasee.>>

He did NOT have the knowledge that is talked about in Isaiah 45:20, John 8:32, John 17:3, Philippians 3:8, Romans 10:2, 2 Corinthians 4:4.

<<It came by random "blowing of the wind".>>

Random? RANDOM???

<<Was the Roman Commander saved by his KNOWLEDGE of the 5 Points.>>

No one is saved by their knowledge. They are saved by the work of Jesus Christ alone.

<<Or was it that FAITH that had not been seen in all of Jerusalem?>>

His faith didn't save him; he was saved by the work of Jesus Christ alone.

But let's talk about faith. What is faith? It is belief. Belief of what? DOCTRINE. I couldn't care less if a person is able to articulate the five points. That's not the issue AT ALL. It's THE GOSPEL. Does that person believe THE GOSPEL? True faith believes in the gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. True faith believes that it is the work of Jesus Christ alone that makes the only difference between salvation and damnation. That's what the Roman Commander believed. That's what every true believer believes.

<<Could that Centurian not go boldly before the Throne of Grace? The 70 had not been sent out yet to reveal "the Righteousness" of Romans. The "'crumbs' of this Righteousness" " were not even available for distribution to the 10 Northern Tribes at this point in the game.>>

Oh? So you're saying that there were saved people who were IGNORANT of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel?

<<King David was certainly ahead of the Romans "revelation" of Isaiahs Prophesy. Yet Hebrews claims him as righteous. Did Nathan preach the 5 Points to him?>>

King David believed THE GOSPEL of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of the coming Messiah.

<<Paul never attacked those misled by the Judaisers. He went to correct the bad doctrine.>>

See www.outsidethecamp.org/galatians.htm .

<<And if preaching less than OTC doctrine like Spurgeon, Pink, and Grahm is damnable, them the Apostel Paul is in hell too.>>

"Less than OTC doctrine"?? We're talking about THE GOSPEL here. Got it? THE GOSPEL. You believe that Billy Graham preaches THE GOSPEL?

Do you believe that universal atonement preachers preach THE GOSPEL?

Do you believe that those who believe in universal atonement believe THE GOSPEL?

Do you even have a clue as to what THE GOSPEL is?

<<Can you lay out in 2 or 3 simple steps, heck, 10 for all I care, of what must one do to be saved. Today. Not a Jew during Pauls "transition of Covenants" period. Not an Isrealite in Isaiahs prophesies. A red blooded Gentile, kickin it today, in suburban MyTown.>>

Salvation is conditioned on NOTHING a person does or is enabled to do. We're not talking about prerequisites or conditions; we're talking about necessary, immediate, inevitable FRUIT. (Haven't I said that before?) So a more appropriate question would be: What do all believers believe? And my answer would be: THE GOSPEL. And THE GOSPEL contains DOCTRINE. See "Essential Gospel Doctrine" at www.outsidethecamp.org/egd.htm .

<<Whats a guy got to do to be able to "enter Boldly in"?>>

When God saves a person, that person is given the right to enter boldly in based on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. Anyone who believes he can enter boldly in based on his own efforts is ignorant of the righteousness of God, is not submitted to the righteousness of God, and is going about to establish his own righteousness.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


sovereignchaser wrote:

<<It is OTC who have become Arminian by ADDING to Gods free blowing wind of Jn 3.>>

This is a serious charge. If you cannot back it up with proof, you are guilty of slander. So let's see you prove your accusation here. Give some quotes from e-mails and/or our web site.

We add NOTHING to the work of God as the ground of salvation. NOTHING. Not knowledge, not doctrine, not the five points, not faith, not perseverance, not repentance -- NOTHING.

Salvation is based SOLELY on the work of Jesus Christ. There are NO conditions or prerequisites a sinner must meet to be saved. Not knowledge, not doctrine, not the five points, not faith, not perseverance, not repentance -- NO conditions or prerequisites. Am I making myself clear here?

Read www.outsidethecamp.org/doctregen.htm and www.outsidethecamp.org/credenda.htm and then go ahead and give some proof of your accusation. Go for it. You will be proven to be a liar.

Marc


Wow.

I wrote:

<<You believe that Billy Graham preaches THE GOSPEL?>>

sovereignchaser replied:

<<Got it dog!>>

Again, I say Wow.

Okay, sc -- what is the gospel that Billy Graham preaches? Tell me exactly what that gospel is.

Here's a quote from Billy Graham in My Answer: "The prayer needed is not that Christ may accept you, but rather that you will accept Christ. You do not have to wait for Christ to accept you. He is waiting to see the evidence of your faith in accepting him. The decision is yours, not Christ's. He decided in favor of you when he died for you on the cross. Now you must decide for him. ... Christ will not enter your life in opposition to your beliefs. As soon as he sees that you believe in him and trust in his promise, he will enter. ... [T]he initial step is one of absolute faith on your part."

Billy Graham believes in decisional regeneration.

You believe that you and Billy Graham believe the SAME gospel.

You believe that you and Billy Graham worship the SAME god.

You believe that you and Billy Graham believe in the SAME jesus christ.

You have NO CLUE as to what the true Gospel is.

You have NO CLUE as to who the true God and the true Jesus Christ are.

Repent of your wicked idolatry and believe the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. And don't tell me you already believe the true gospel. You've shown that you DO NOT believe the true gospel by saying that Billy Graham preaches the true gospel.

And you, just like Billy Graham and Robert Schuller (see www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy52.htm ) believe that a regenerate person can have no knowledge of the gospel. This is blasphemous.

Repent and believe the gospel.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


sovereignchaser wrote:

<<Explain to me why Pink and Calvin and the likes, have been sent to hell by your web page?

Easy answer: You have established yourself and your group as the final say on who gets in and who does not.

You have made yourself the final judge of my eternal status.>>

Absolutely wrong. How many times do I have to say it? I'll say what I've said before:

I have NEVER judged the eternal status of ANYONE who I said was unregenerate. And I made a POINT to show the DIFFERENCE between judging someone to be UNREGENERATE (lost) and judging someone to be REPROBATE (not elect). We DO NOT judge who is REPROBATE (not elect). Among the unregenerate, there are the elect and reprobate. I DO NOT KNOW if Calvin, Pink, Spurgeon, etc., etc., are among the elect. I DO NOT KNOW if they are in heaven or hell right now. I HAVE NOT sent them to hell. What I DO KNOW is that when Calvin, Pink, Spurgeon, etc., etc., made their statements showing that they believed a false gospel, they were unregenerate AT THAT TIME. I do not know if God regenerated them later in their lives. So PLEASE, STOP ACCUSING ME of judging the eternal status of yourself and others! It's just a flat-out LIE!

<<It is not what sayeth the word. It is "what Presupositional Standards of OTC" have I met or fallen short of. Period.>>

Absolutely wrong. It is the Word of God, not my word, that stands. GOD says that His righteousness is revealed in the gospel (Romans 1:17). GOD says that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone believing (Romans 1:16). GOD says His righteousness revealed in the gospel shows Him to be just and Justifier (Romans 3:21-26). GOD says that those who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are automatically going about to establish their own righteousness and are not submitted to the righteousness of God (Romans 10:3). Not me -- GOD. So your argument isn't with me. It's with GOD. Go ahead and shake your fist and God. Go ahead and tell Him that he's being too narrow and judgmental. I'll just stand back.

<<There is no Grace of Romans 14 in your message. There is no Restoration of Galations in your shingle.>>

Absolutely wrong. We receive the weak brothers. We restore the sinning brothers. Now the question is: WHO are the weak brothers? Are they ones who believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception, thus believing that it is not the work of Jesus Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation? Of course not. These are not weak brothers -- they are not brothers at all! The difference between their gospel and the true gospel is not one of degree -- it is one of kind. Universal atonement advocates believe in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT gospel than true brothers in Christ. The brothers in Christ, whether weak or strong, believe in the TRUE GOSPEL of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. That's the STARTING POINT in their Christian lives. And we most certainly do receive such, whether weak or strong. And we certainly restore and forgive such.

<<You are Gods final hoop that must be cleared for Peter to open the Pearly Gates.>>

Absolutely wrong. I'm not the hoop. I'm not the gate-keeper into heaven. I proclaim the GOSPEL. And God, according to His gospel, says that all who have a righteousness that answers the demands of His law and justice will have eternal life in heaven, and all who don't won't.

<<Go stick your head back in the sand and keep thinking that you are the Einstien of the Theological Realm.>>

Absolutely wrong. I don't believe I'm smarter than everyone else. Even the uneducated brothers in Christ know the basics of the gospel -- Christ's person and Christ's work.

<<Slander? So be it. At least I'll go down in your book with 2 strikes keeping me out of the Kingdom. Instead of just the one of Heresy.>>

So you're an admitted slanderer. So be it.

<<still dont want to touch Mars Hill do ya bro?

Still dont want to explain Peter and the blanket full of unclean meat do ya bro?

still dont want to touch Abraham looking for a city and not the Christ Child do ya?>>

Absolutely wrong. I'd be happy to touch them. Paul, Peter, and Abraham all believed and proclaimed the same gospel -- God's promise of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of the God-Man Messiah.

So you think Abraham didn't believe in Christ, eh? Well, let this Word of God smash your little false gospel to bits:

Jesus speaking: "Your father Abraham LEAPED FOR JOY TO SEE MY DAY, and HE SAW, and REJOICED" (John 8:56)!!!!!!

I don't want to touch Abraham looking for a city and not the Christ Child, eh? Well, sovchaser, touch John 8:56 if you dare. Abraham REJOICED to see CHRIST'S DAY, and HE SAW CHRIST'S DAY!! You slander Abraham by saying he wasn't looking for Christ. But John 8:56 blasts your slander to pieces. Abraham LOOKED for Christ, he SAW Christ, and he REJOICED. So, sovchaser, is this the "Presuppositional standards of OTC," or is this the WORD OF GOD?

<<Faith comes by HEARING. That is the listeners EARS Marc! Not the DOCTRINE or the HEART of the Preacher bro.>>

Faith comes by hearing WHAT? Hearing the Koran? Hearing "Little Red Riding Hood"? Hearing a Beethoven concerto?

<<I dont care if Billy says Jesus is Big Bird. If he uses any verses from the 66 Books, that is all that is required per "faith comes by hearing".>>

So if Billy Graham preaches that Jesus is Big Bird and then preaches from the Bible, and someone in his audience believes Billy's word that Jesus is Big Bird, that person is saved?

<<Gospel = "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word">>

THAT'S the gospel? Really? Hmmmm ... so let's turn over to 1 Corinthians 15, in which Paul says, "I reveal to you the gospel which I preached to you." Paul says that "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures" is part of the gospel. He says that "He was buried, and that He was raised the third day, according to the Scriptures" is part of the gospel. Hey, wait! Where is the "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word"? Guess Paul must've missed that part of the gospel, according to you, eh? And how about Romans 1:16-17? Where is the righteousness of God revealed (God being just and justifier through the work of Christ - Romans 3) in "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word"? And let's go over to John the Baptist, who said, "Repent and believe the gospel." To you, this means he was saying, "Repent and believe that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word." Hmmmm ... interesting gospel you have there, sovchaser. It's not the true gospel of the Bible. It most certainly IS the TRUTH, but it is not the gospel. Faith comes by hearing THE GOSPEL.

<<Now if you want to discuss Billys personal life. Thats different. But not really. He's reading from the Good Book too!>>

Do you believe that Billy Graham is a regenerate person?

<<And heck, who really needs election with your system anyways?>>

God, before the foundation of the world, chose to save a certain people and to cause them to believe THE GOSPEL. "But whom He predestinated, these He also CALLED." What is that calling? Is it a call to believe a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner?

<<My system simply needs the ears of the Elect and the Magic of the Word. Yours needs a PHD in Theology. And thats just the PREACHER! The listener in your paradigm may need a double PHD!>>

Absolutely wrong. The gospel is not made up of some "higher theology" that only seminarians can understand. It is made up of the BASICS. The basics are the PERSON of Christ and the WORK of Christ. It doesn't get any simpler than that. Every Christian from a newborn babe in Christ to an elder in Christ, believes THE SAME GOSPEL.

<<Christ spoke to those who are "Burdened and Heavy laden" not to your disinfranchised intelectuals.>>

A saved person doesn't need to be an intellectual. He must certainly use his intellect, but he doesn't need to be an intellectual. In fact, God says that there are "not many wise according to flesh, nor many powerful, not many wellborn. But God chose the foolish things of the world that the wise might be put to shame, and God chose the weak things of the world so that He might put to shame the strong things. And God chose the low-born of the world, and the despised, and the things that are not, so that He might bring to nothing the things that are, so that no flesh might glory in His presence." (1 Corinthians 1:26-29). So, sovchaser, is what I am saying FOOLISHNESS to you? Is it WEAK to you? Do you DESPISE it?

<<Election alone. Election alone IS the Gospel. Not the words that proceed out of anyone or anythings mouth.>>

Hey, wait a minute! I thought "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word" was your gospel. Now it's "Election"? So does your gospel change like the weather?

And you say that the gospel is not the words that proceed out of anyone or anything's mouth? Really?

"How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed? And how may they believe One of whom they have not heard? And how may they hear without preaching?" (Romans 10:14) So, sovchaser, is this the "Presuppositional standards of OTC," or is this the WORD OF GOD?

Note the verse right before this one: "For everyone, whoever may call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Yet verse 14 says that people CANNOT call on someone they've not believed, and they cannot believe in someone of whom they've not heard!! Thus, anyone who has NOT HEARD of Christ -- His person and His work -- is not saved! That's so simple a child can understand it! Yet you will shake your fist at God and tell him, "No, that's not the way you're supposed to do it."

How is the gospel put forth? How is a person to believe the gospel? It is PREACHED. It is either preached through the MOUTH of a person proclaiming the gospel, or it is preached through the BIBLE when one reads it.

<<Abraham, while yet worshiping idols, and uncircumcised of the flesh, WAS circumcised of the heart.>>

Oh? So Abraham continued worshiping idols after God regenerated him? So why not anyone else? How do you know that any particular Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist is unregenerate? Of course, you don't, because you believe a regenerate person can continue to worship idols, to pray to a god who cannot save (Isaiah 45:20), to be ignorant of God who is a just God and a Savior (Isaiah 45:21)!!

<<Remember Zipporah? She was clueless to the message.>>

So you're saying that regenerate people can be clueless to the gospel. They can be ignorant of the gospel. They can even be ignorant of the person of Christ. What blasphemy.

<<Nothing could contain more human pride and arogance, than to proclaim that we know just what the message should "sound" like, or what its "content" should be.>>

The content of a message is VITAL!! If the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, then the message must include THE GOSPEL!

<<We as Calvinist are NO different from Mr.Finney and his NESSESARIES , to move the soul.>>

Wow. You know what, I think you've hit on some truth here. The mainstream, run-of-the-mill tolerant Calvinist, IS NO DIFFERENT than Finney. You're right on the mark. Both are God-hating agents of Satan. You're saying that you're no different than the Pelagian Finney. I don't doubt it for a minute.

But those who believe and proclaim the true gospel ARE different from Finney. As different as night and day, east and west. Finney unabashedly preached a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. Those who proclaim the true gospel preach just the opposite -- salvation conditioned on the work of Christ alone. One is of the devil, the other is of God.

<<As is OTC for setting the same list of NESSESARIES. Oh, sure! they aren't the SAME "ITEMS" per say. But they are just as HUMAN. They belittle God just the same. They are just as focused on the abilities of MAN. Only they are after the MAN behind the pulpit. Instead of the Man in front of the Pulpit. Finney said Man can save himself. OTC says Man can save others.>>

Absolutely wrong. Slander in the first degree. There are NO "necessaries" for salvation. Salvation is not conditioned on the sinner in any way to any degree. If we believed that there were some conditions or prerequisites a sinner had to meet in order to be saved, we would be just as lost as you and Finney. Man cannot save himself, and man cannot save others. Only God can save. And when He does, He gives that saved person a knowledge of the gospel of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

<<Faith comes by hearing. Period. Am I going to interpret for God the "AMOUNT" that must be HEARD?>>

No. You just have to read the Word. The gospel contains certain propositions about the person and work of Christ. Without these propositions, there is no gospel.

<<Sure, Vintage J.Edwards on DVD would be first choice! But even the "water" from Billy, must taste like Honey from heaven to the heavy hearted elect driking for the first time.>>

You show yourself to be blind, with a darkened heart. The poison of Billy Graham tastes NOTHING like honey to the newly regenerated. It would only be honey to people like you and the people to whom you speak peace. "WOE to those who say to evil, good; and to good, evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20). WOE to you, sovchaser, who calls evil good, who puts darkness for light, and who puts bitter for sweet!!!

<<Welcome to the Kingdom. God doesnt need your message. He needs your obedience. Obedience to LOVE your BROTHER. Not call him a Heretic.>>

And WHO IS my brother? WHAT STANDARD should I use to JUDGE him to be my brother? Is it zeal for God? Well, Paul said that the Jews had a zeal for God, but it wasn't according to KNOWLEDGE (Romans 10:2). Is it reputation or outward appearance? Paul said that even if someone with the reputation of an apostle or the appearance of an angel should preach a gospel other than the true gospel, LET HIM BE ACCURSED (Galatians 1:8-9).

So what is it to love the brothers? What is our unity based on? It is a unity based on a common walk in the light: "but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). It is a unity based on a common belief of and defense of the truth of the gospel: "... that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel" (Philippians 1:27b). It is a unity based on common adversaries and common suffering: "and in nothing be terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. For unto you it is given in behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:28-29). We love the same things. We hate the same things. We are closer than any natural blood relations. We love our Lord Jesus Christ and the gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. We hate all false gospels that condition salvation in any way, to any degree, on the sinner. We speak peace to each other based on our common salvation. We do not speak peace to our brothers' enemies. We desire to fellowship with each other. We rejoice together in Christ and defend each other against the attacks of our enemies. We help each other in times of need. These are the ways in which we show our love for each other. God said, "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes" (1 John 2:9-11). Loving the brothers is not an option. Those who do not love believers show themselves to be unregenerate. For example, if a professing believer says that some who believe in universal atonement are his brothers in Christ, then he is speaking peace to the enemies of the people of God, showing that he actually hates the people of God. His is not in unity with the people of God. He is one of those "which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned" (Romans 16:17). We are to point out and avoid such people. But when we find those who believe the truth and thus judge by the truth, we are to embrace them as our brothers in Christ. We may have differences, but they are not gospel differences. We are to bear with the weaknesses of one another in love. God's people are all over the world, of different races, tongues, and circumstances. Let us who are believers seek them out and love them.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc


sovchaser wrote:

<<There is NOTHING in Scripture that asserts that Justification is based on PERFECT Knowledge. Period.>>

This is an accusation that I believe that justification is based on perfect knowledge. This is absolutely wrong. It is slander. I challenge you to show me anywhere where I have said or even remotely implied that justification is based on perfect knowledge. You won't find it. I do not believe it. In fact, I do not believe that justification is based on ANY knowledge AT ALL. Justification is based on the work of Christ ALONE. Go back and read "Doctrinal Regeneration" at www.outsidethecamp.org/doctregen.htm .

As a RESULT of justification, God gives a person certain knowledge. Does he give that person perfect knowledge of all Bible doctrines? No. I have never claimed such. But He DOES give that person a knowledge of THE GOSPEL of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone.

<<The deal was pragmatic at best. The ultimate Arminian message if you will. Obey/Get out of God way, and live. And guess what. If they obeyed that "gospel" message, it was counted as righteousness.>>

Ah, so if they obeyed "the ultimate Arminian message," they were saved. Got it. And you have the gall to call yourself a Christian.

Marc


DataRat wrote:

<<First of all, El Raton was regenerate as an ATHEIST. Let's not confuse regeneration with conversion. Absolutely anyone of any belief can be regenerate.>>

Did everyone see that? Read it very closely. Got it, everyone? DataRat believes that he was a REGENERATE person when he was an ATHEIST. And he believes that ANYONE of ANY BELIEF (whether it be Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Satanist) can be a regenerate person. According to DataRat, who knows -- Osama bin Laden could be regenerate! DataRat likes to call others Hyper-Calvinists, but this is the epitome of Hyper-Calvinism.

For anyone who is interested, this damnable heresy is smashed to pieces in the article "The Irrelevant Gospel" at www.outsidethecamp.org/review52.htm .

To God alone be the glory,

Marc


DataRat wrote:

<<God can regenerate ANYONE. Children. Adults. The elderly. People in the womb. People on their deathbeds ! Jews. Gentiles. Heathens. Male or female. NOBODY is beyond the Lord's reach !>>

I agree. Of course, that's not the point -- it's a diversionary tactic. OF COURSE God can regenerate anyone. And if God regenerates a Satanist, that person is NO LONGER a Satanist! What DataRat believes is that when God regenerates a Satanist, that person can REMAIN a Satanist for days, months, even years!

<<"According to DataRat, who knows -- Osama bin Laden could be regenerate!"

No. If he is regenerate we will know when he converts to Christ.

Regeneration ALWAYS results in conversion.

So, there's no guessing here. The regenerate will prove their regeneration by conversion !>>

Right -- but according to your damnable scheme, Osama bin Laden could be a regenerate person who hasn't yet been converted! You believe that if Osama bin Laden is currently regenerate, then he will eventually be converted. But it could be days, months, even years!

<<"this damnable heresy is smashed to pieces in the article..."

The Genevan Rodent doesn't debate web sites !

Don't be a coward. Make your own arguments.

Right here. Right now.>>

The article to which I referred is MY OWN article, fool. So I'll go ahead and post the article, since it's MY OWN writing. Then you can debate ME, who wrote the article.

<<God's Word says that you can't even "see" the Kingdom of God until you've been regenerated (John 3:3). Whereas the anti-Calvinists at 'Outside the Camp' claim the opposite: You can't be regenerated until you've seen the Kingdom of God !>>

Absolutely wrong. This is a slanderous accusation. We believe that one cannot see the Kingdom of God until one has been regenerated.

<<Regeneration is NOT conversion. Nor does conversion make a person "born again" (lit. "born from above").

But, here, the extremists at 'Outside the Camp' agree with the Arminians.>>

Absolutely wrong. Another slanderous accusation. We do not believe that regeneration is conversion. We do not believe that conversion makes one born again. These are absolute lies.

<<The Arminian heretics say that that a person's "decision for Christ" or "accepting Jesus" results in them being Born Again.

Or -at minimum- is concurrent with it.

This seems to be Marc's position.>>

Liar.

<<We deny that anyone can convert to Christ without first having been regenerated ! Nobody on their own either understands the Gospel, or seeks God (Romans 3:11).

So, regeneration [being "Born Again"] must necessarily precede conversion.>>

We, too, deny that anyone can convert to Christ without first having been regenerated. We, too, believe that regeneration precedes conversion. Where we differ from you is that we believe that conversion is an IMMEDIATE fruit of regeneration. NO regenerate person goes for days, months, or years before being converted. Conversion IMMEDIATELY follows regeneration.

The Christian Confession of Faith (www.outsidethecamp.org/ccf.htm) states this:

1. Regeneration (also known as the new birth) is that grace in which the Holy Spirit brings a sinner from spiritual death to spiritual life, takes away his old heart and old spirit, implants within him a new heart and a new spirit, and indwells him. He is made a new creation, dead to sin and alive to God in Jesus Christ, so that he is no longer totally depraved and no longer serves sin. God's grace in regeneration is irresistible; that is, no man is able to resist the motions of the Holy Spirit to regenerate him. Regeneration is never preceded by any condition the sinner meets, can meet, or is enabled to meet. [Deu 30:6; Jer 24:7; Eze 11:19-20; 36:25-27; Zec 4:6; Joh 1:13; 3:3-8; 6:37,44,63; 10:3-5,27; 17:2; Rom 5:5; 6:1-22; 7:6; 8:2,5-16,30; 1Co 15:45; Eph 2:5; 4:22-24; Col 2:11-13; Tit 3:5; Heb 9:13-15; 1Pe 1:23]

2. At the same time a sinner is regenerated, he is adopted into God's family and set apart from the world. He is counted to be as holy and acceptable before God as Jesus Christ Himself, is made to be at peace with God, and enters into fellowship with God based on the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. [Job 29:14; Psa 85:8; Isa 26:3; 32:17; 61:10; Joh 1:12; 17:21-23; Rom 3:22; 4:6-8; 5:1-2,19; 8:14-17,33-39; 1Co 1:30; 6:11; 2Co 5:21; Gal 3:26; 4:5-7; Eph 1:4-5; 2:14-19; 3:11-12; 5:25-27; Col 1:20-22; 2Th 2:13; Tit 3:7; Heb 2:10-11; 1Jo 1:3; 3:1; Rev 21:7]

3. Conversion is that grace in which the Holy Spirit causes the sinner to repent and believe the gospel. The regenerate person is given a knowledge and understanding of the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ alone and the realization that he was unregenerate when he believed a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. He counts all of his former life and deeds, whether religious or irreligious, as dead works, evil deeds, and fruit unto death. Conversion is the immediate and inevitable fruit of regeneration; therefore, a person may not be regenerated without being converted. There has never existed and will never exist a regenerate person who is ignorant of the gospel. Scripture rejects the lie that an unregenerate person can be under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, since the Holy Spirit only leads people to Jesus Christ and His righteousness as the only ground of salvation. [Deu 4:34-35; Isa 45:6,20-25; Mat 13:23; Mar 16:16; Joh 6:40; 8:32; 16:8-11; 17:3; Act 16:14-15; Rom 1:16-17; 3:26; 6:17,21; 7:6; 1Co 2:10-12; 2Co 4:2-6; Eph 1:13; Phi 3:7-8; 2Th 2:13-14; Heb 9:14; 1Jo 5:20]

<<Regeneration always precedes conversion.

Except in the confused apostasy of 'Outside the Camp'.>>

This is just a bold-faced lie. It is slander in the first degree. DataRat can't even refute our actual position, so he has to lie and make up false positions to try to refute them. Now THIS is the sign of a coward.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc


Ray wrote:

> To say that conversion can be a long and
> drawn out process is to , in effect deny the power of the Holy
> Spirit and makes the grace of God of none effect.


Exactly. Yet you still call DataRat your brother! So you're saying that your BROTHER IN CHRIST is denying the power of the Holy Spirit and is making the grace of God of none effect. You believe that DataRat believes the same gospel you do. Amazing.

By the way, I am very careful, thoughtful, and deliberate in using the term "fool." It did not come from a "burst of emotion." It came from a judgment of the spiritual state of DataRat. DataRat is a liar, a slanderer, a blasphemer, an enemy of the cross, a wolf, a hypocrite, a fool. All these are said with the utmost seriousness and deliberation.

And if that gets me kicked off the list, then so be it.

Marc


Chip wrote:

<<Talking about theology is one thing, but starting to insult someone is another. So from now one we do not tolerate anyone calling people names or insulting the other's beliefs. We all should be studying Calvinism, Theology, but THERE WILL NOT BE ANY MORE PERSONAL ATTACKS by calling names, etc.>>

The Bible says:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Joh 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Isa 57:3 But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore.

Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Psa 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.

Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Eze 16:28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.

1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Mat 23:17 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Mat 23:19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Luk 11:40 [Ye] fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mat 23:24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Mat 23:26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Pro 11:9 An hypocrite with [his] mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.

Mat 6:2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Mat 15:7 [Ye] hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

Mat 16:3 And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times?

Mat 22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, [ye] hypocrites?

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.

Luk 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over [them] are not aware [of them].

Luk 12:56 [Ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, [Thou] hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or [his] ass from the stall, and lead [him] away to watering?

Pro 17:4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; [and] a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.

Pro 19:22 The desire of a man [is] his kindness: and a poor man [is] better than a liar.

Jer 50:36 A sword [is] upon the liars; and they shall dote: a sword [is] upon her mighty men; and they shall be dismayed.

Tit 1:12 One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Isa 56:10 His watchmen [are] blind: they are all ignorant, they [are] all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

Isa 56:11 Yea, [they are] greedy dogs [which] can never have enough, and they [are] shepherds [that] cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

Luk 12:20 But God said unto him, [Thou] fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

1Co 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Isa 19:11 Surely the princes of Zoan [are] fools, the counsel of the wise counsellors of Pharaoh is become brutish: how say ye unto Pharaoh, I [am] the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings?

Psa 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.

Psa 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: [there is] none that doeth good.

Psa 92:6 A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.

Pro 7:22 He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;

Pro 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.

Pro 10:10 He that winketh with the eye causeth sorrow: but a prating fool shall fall.

Pro 10:18 He that hideth hatred [with] lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, [is] a fool.

Pro 10:23 [It is] as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.

Pro 11:29 He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool [shall be] servant to the wise of heart.

Pro 12:15 The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [is] wise.

Pro 12:16 A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent [man] covereth shame.

Pro 13:16 Every prudent [man] dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open [his] folly.

Pro 14:16 A wise [man] feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

Pro 15:5 A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.

Pro 17:7 Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince.

Pro 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.

Pro 17:12 Let a bear robbed of her whelps meet a man, rather than a fool in his folly.

Pro 17:16 Wherefore [is there] a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing [he hath] no heart [to it]?

Pro 17:21 He that begetteth a fool [doeth it] to his sorrow: and the father of a fool hath no joy.

Pro 17:24 Wisdom [is] before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool [are] in the ends of the earth.

Pro 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

Pro 18:6 A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.

Pro 18:7 A fool's mouth [is] his destruction, and his lips [are] the snare of his soul.

Pro 19:1 Better [is] the poor that walketh in his integrity, than [he that is] perverse in his lips, and is a fool.

Pro 19:10 Delight is not seemly for a fool; much less for a servant to have rule over princes.

Pro 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

Pro 24:7 Wisdom [is] too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.

Pro 26:1 As snow in summer, and as rain in harvest, so honour is not seemly for a fool.

Pro 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Pro 26:6 He that sendeth a message by the hand of a fool cutteth off the feet, [and] drinketh damage.

Pro 26:8 As he that bindeth a stone in a sling, so [is] he that giveth honour to a fool.

Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, [so] a fool returneth to his folly.

Pro 27:3 A stone [is] heavy, and the sand weighty; but a fool's wrath [is] heavier than them both.

Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

Pro 29:11 A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise [man] keepeth it in till afterwards.

Psa 94:8 Understand, ye brutish among the people: and [ye] fools, when will ye be wise?

Psa 107:17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.

Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

Pro 3:35 The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools.

Pro 10:21 The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.

Pro 12:23 A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.

Pro 13:19 The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul: but [it is] abomination to fools to depart from evil.

Pro 13:20 He that walketh with wise [men] shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.

Pro 14:8 The wisdom of the prudent [is] to understand his way: but the folly of fools [is] deceit.

Pro 14:9 Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous [there is] favour.

Pro 14:33 Wisdom resteth in the heart of him that hath understanding: but [that which is] in the midst of fools is made known.

Pro 15:2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.

Pro 15:14 The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.

Pro 16:22 Understanding [is] a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools [is] folly.

Pro 19:29 Judgments are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the back of fools.

Pro 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so [is] a parable in the mouth of fools.

Pro 26:9 [As] a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so [is] a parable in the mouth of fools.


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