antithesis wrote: "Is that what a 3 yr old needs to be able to articulate in order to be saved? Or a menatlly handicapped person?"

No. First of all, NO ONE needs to do ANYTHING in order to be saved. Salvation is not conditioned on ANYTHING the sinner does or is enabled to do. Secondly, I do not judge those who are not able to articulate their beliefs, such as a three-year-old or a mentally handicapped person, unsaved. We do not know if such people are saved or lost. But what we DO know is that if a three-year-old or mentally handicapped person IS saved, they believe THE SAME GOSPEL that all true gospel believers believe. They may not be able to articulate it, but they BELIEVE it. Another thing is for sure: if one believes the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Christ alone, then he will certainly NOT confess belief in a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner.

TreyFROG wrote: "First, it seems so strange to me that it is impossible for you to say to someone like Paul did that the Gospel ("Good News") is simply "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household."

Tolerant Calvinists love to quote Acts 16:31 without also quoting Acts 16:32: "And they spoke the WORD OF THE LORD to him, and to all those in his house." Paul and Silas preached THE GOSPEL to him and his household. Where, in your definition of the gospel, are the facts of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, which Paul says is the gospel?

TreyFROG wrote: "The fact is, faith *IS* the condition of salvation (not of regeneration, mind you, but of salvation)."

This clearly shows why you and I believe different gospels. One of us believes the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone, and one of us believes the false gospel of salvation conditioned on what the sinner is enabled to do.

TreyFROG wrote: "What an absolute tragedy that Marc and people like him are actually teaching people this filth, denying justification by faith alone, affirming eternal justification (apart from our receiving and resting upon Christ by God's grace operating in our lives...IN TIME)!"

This is slander. I do not affirm eternal justification. I believe in justification in time. I believe what the Christian Confession of Faith (www.outsidethecamp.org/ccf.htm) states on this matter:

"Faith is not a condition of or prerequisite to salvation; instead, faith believes that Jesus Christ alone met all the conditions for salvation. Faith is the instrument through which a believer receives the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ and is justified."

People on this forum like to call us "hyper-calvinists." The definition of hyper-calvinism depends on who's defining it. Historically, hyper-calvinism has mainly been the view that God does not command all without exception to repent and believe and that all without exception do not have a duty to repent and believe. I do not hold to this view. I believe that all without exception are commanded to repent and believe and all without exception have a duty to repent and believe. Another characteristic that has been come to known as hyper-calvinism is the view (mainly espoused by Primitive Baptists) that there can be a lapse of time, even days, months, or years, between regeneration and conversion. Thus, there are regenerate people who do not believe the gospel and are even in staunch opposition to the gospel. I do not hold to this view. In fact, I exposed and repudiated this view in a review entitled "The Irrelevant Gospel" at www.outsidethecamp.org/review52.htm . Thus far, I've shown that I do not believe in any of the tenets of commonly-defined hyper-calvinism. However, there is one more part of some people's definition, which is a much more recent addition: Some say that hyper-calvinism includes the belief that God does not desire the salvation of the reprobate and that there is no such thing as "common grace." In this case, I admit that I believe both of these. God does not desire the salvation of the reprobate, and there is no such monstrosity as common grace. See www.outsidethecamp.org/commongrace.htm .

Marc


TreyFROG wrote:

"What an absolute tragedy that Marc and people like him are actually teaching people this filth, denying justification by faith alone, affirming eternal justification (apart from our receiving and resting upon Christ by God's grace operating in our lives...IN TIME)! I shudder to think of the people that these men are making into two-fold children of hell by their hateful rhetoric. The Pharisees ain't got *NOTHING* on Marc Carpenter! The only good news to come out of any of this is that, they are so nasty that there will only a handful of people who are even willing listening to them...how soon we forget where we came from. ICABOD! ICABOD! Stay outside the camp where Moses said the *CRAP* belongs (Deut. 23:12)!"

Okay! I'm very glad that TreyFROG has judged me to be unregenerate! Now we're getting somewhere! I don't mind at all that TreyFROG has judged me to be unregenerate; it's actually a great jumping-off point for a discussion about essential gospel matters.

So, TreyFROG, you judge me to be unregenerate, and you judge some Arminians to be regenerate. Tell me, TreyFROG, what is the STANDARD by which you judge me to be unregenerate and by which you judge some Arminians to be regenerate? You must have some standard, right? There has to be some kind of standard in order to be so judgmental, right? So tell us all what it is. What is that standard?

For any who are interested, there's an article entitled "Righteous Judgment" that goes into this at www.outsidethecamp.org/rightjudg.htm .

Regarding the Pharisees and "outside the camp where Moses said the *CRAP* belongs": That's exactly the point. The Pharisees judged Jesus Christ to be of the devil. They judged Him to be CRAP. The Jews crucified Christ outside the camp because they considered Jesus Christ, the Lord of Glory, to be CRAP. And all who will follow Christ will be considered to be CRAP by those inside the camp of self-righteous religion. Hebrews 13:13 tells the followers of Christ to bear the reproach that Christ bore - to be considered CRAP just like Christ was considered to be - by following Him outside the camp where He was. That's where all true believers are. They are outside the camp of self-righteous religion, they are considered to be nuts, to be the scum of the earth, to be reviled, just like Christ. So thanks, TreyFROG, for pointing that out.

And if anyone is interested, there's an article entitled "What Is A Pharisee?" at www.outsidethecamp.org/pharisee.htm .

Joyfully bearing the reproach of Christ,

Marc


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