"If anyone is interested on how much romans9's religion is worth, I welcome you to read the following:
James 1:26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless. (NASB)."
Here, Monkeesage believes that calling someone a God-hater is not bridling his tongue but deceiving his own heart and that his religion is worthless. Hmmmm ...
Check out Exodus 20:5, Numbers 10:35, Deuteronomy 32:41, Psalm 83:2, Psalm 139:21. Guess you'd say they're not bridling their tongue, eh?
And what about John the Baptist, who called the self-righteous religionists the offspring of vipers (Matthew 3:7)? And what about Paul, who said he wished the self-righteous religionists would castrate themselves (Galatians 5:12)? And what about Jesus Christ Himself, who said that the father of the self-righteous religionists was the devil (John 8:44) and that they were sons of Hell (Matthew 23:15)? Guess Monkeesage would have to apply James 1:26 to them and say that they deceived their own hearts and that their religion is worthless.
"Why would you sat [sic] a tolerant Calvinist hates God?"
I assume you meant "say." For articles that show that tolerant Calvinists are unregenerate, please see
"I read your article and I wonder if you misunderstand the doctrine of regeneration. Repeatedly in the article you say, 'They hate the true God and the true gospel. They are unregenerate.' An individual does not have perfected theology at the point of their regeneration.. One cannot even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. Regeneration precedes faith. Regeneration surely, then precedes complete doctrinal understanding. "
I've never said that one has perfected theology or complete doctrinal understanding at the point of regeneration. I encourage you to read the web pages I referenced last time (replies to tolerant Calvinists - especially the one about perfectionism) that go into this further. I'm saying (and the Bible says) that one BELIEVES THE GOSPEL as an immediate fruit of regeneration. Believing the gospel means believing in the PERSON and the WORK of Jesus Christ. Those who believe in universal atonement don't merely have "imperfect theology"; they DENY THE GOSPEL. They DO NOT BELIEVE THE GOSPEL. What you do not understand is that the atonement is at the very heart of the gospel. Universal atonement advocates deny the atonement.
"I will say that Jesus did accomplish the redemption of His people. I'll even quote your article 'Jesus Christ had finished the work He came to do. All the sins of all His people were imputed to Him, and He suffered as a substitute and representative for His people. His suffering unto death actually accomplished full pardon, redemption, propitiation, and reconciliation for every single person whom He represented on the cross. Christ's atoning death was absolutely, totally effectual.' However I did not always hold to this doctrine."
Sadly, what you do not understand, is that denying the doctrine you quoted is denying the gospel. The only way you will ever understand that is if God opens your eyes and changes your heart so you will see it. I pray that this will happen.
"Faith is a gift from God, not based on man's theology, but based on God's grace and mercy."
Along the same lines, tartanarmy wrote:
"Imagine those who are proclaiming their unworthiness and the sovereignty of God in salvation, and then proclaiming a very proud system of 'understanding doctrine' as necessary for salvation. It is grace turned into human pride and arrogance of a sort even worse than Arminianism."
If I believed that understanding doctrine is necessary for salvation or that salvation is based on man's theology, I would be as lost as the Arminians and the Calvinists who speak peace to them. I do not believe this. In fact, I vehemently oppose this. There is NOTHING that is a prerequisite or condition for salvation, including understanding of any doctrine or theology. Please see the article "Doctrinal Regeneration" at www.outsidethecamp.org/doctregen.htm . I oppose doctrinal regeneration with all my being. Belief of gospel doctrine is NOT a condition or prerequisite of salvation; it IS, however, a necessary and immediate FRUIT of regeneration. There is no such thing as a regenerate person who does not believe the gospel.
"Their motto would be. 'Salvation is of the Lord, BUT, you must also understand 'doctrine' to the level of purity that we agree with, based on our interpretations of Scripture'"
This is a gross misrepresentation of what we believe, even slander. And, on top of that, let me try to show you the ridiculousness of it. Suppose I say that all Jehovah's Witnesses are unregenerate. Suppose then that tartanarmy replied to me, "Well, the, you must believe that understanding doctrine is necessary for salvation. Your motto must be, 'Salvation is of the Lord, BUT, you must also understand doctrine to the level of purity that we agree with, based on our interpretations of Scripture." After all, the JW's are just off on a little DOCTRINE, aren't they? They just misunderstand the DOCTRINE of the deity of Christ, right? So to say that JW's are unregenerate is equivalent to believing that understanding DOCTRINE is necessary for salvation, according to tartanarmy. See how ridiculous this is? And it could get even more ridiculous if we talk about people like Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus. If I say that Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus are unregenerate, am I saying that understanding doctrine is necessary for salvation? Am I saying that salvation is of the Lord, BUT, you must also understand doctrine to the level of purity that we agree with, based on our interpretations of Scripture? Obviously ridiculous, right?
When God saves a person, He gives that person some specific KNOWLEDGE. That knowledge includes knowledge of the PERSON of Jesus Christ and the WORK of Jesus Christ. Those who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are unregenerate (Romans 10:1-3). And yes, the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel (Romans 1:16-17) involves DOCTRINE (Romans 3:21-26). Knowledge of this doctrine is NOT a condition of or prerequisite to salvation; it is an immediate FRUIT of regeneration. What exactly is FAITH in Jesus Christ, anyway? Faith includes belief in the PERSON and WORK of Jesus Christ.
Again, I encourage you to read the web pages I mentioned in my last post.
Finally, tartanarmy wrote:
"Start with yourselves first, for I assure you that wrong doctrine leads to wrong living. You will find proof there for starters."
Read the article on Personal Purity at www.outsidethecamp.org/perspur.htm and read the sermons on godly living in the series on Romans at www.outsidethecamp.org/sermons.htm if you want to know where we stand regarding holy living. Although I'm still a sinner, I strive to obey God's commands, even to the point of being called "puritanical." So don't go leveling accusations before you know how we live.
Marc D. Carpenter
<<Raving absurdity from unregenerate Marc Carpenter of Outside the Camp.
"We categorically deny these accusations. A Christian would never say that salvation is conditioned on something in the sinner or that belief in certain doctrines is a prerequisite to salvation. We have never said such blasphemous things in our newsletter."
"All who are regenerate believe the gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. This means that all regenerate people believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation"
He says salvation is not conditioned upon belief of certain doctrines
All regenerate people must believe
that it is the work alone of Christ that saves
Proof positive that He teaches a works salvation by his own admission.
End of story
I always thought it was a simple trusting in Christ that saves, not believing that I am saved by believing that I must believe that only Jesus Christ's work alone saves.
And besides, is not the saving of a soul a work by the blessed Trinity?
Marc Carpenter...You are lost my friend, please repent.>>
Okay, one more time.
Belief is NOT a PREREQUISITE to salvation. Belief IS an IMMEDIATE FRUIT of salvation.
Got it? Or are you too stupid to see the difference?
Salvation is of God ALONE -- not based on ANYTHING the sinner does or is enabled to do, including belief of any doctrines. And when God saves a person, he CAUSES that person to believe the gospel (which includes doctrines).
Maybe this will help:
Heresy of salvation by works:
belief results in salvation
Truth of salvation by grace resulting in belief:
salvation results in belief
A Christian would NEVER say that salvation is conditioned on something in the sinner or that belief in certain doctrines is a prerequisite to salvation. AND ALL regenerate people believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation.
This belief (that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation) is NOT -- IS NOT -- a prerequisite or precondition of salvation. This belief IS a RESULT of salvation.
Got it? Only a fool would not be able to see that this is NOT works salvation.
To God alone be the glory,
Marc D. Carpenter
<<It is not believers knowing that Christ's work alone saves, but rather trusting in Christ alone that proves salvation.>>
tartanarmy tries to separate Christ's saving work from trusting in Christ alone. There is no such separation. When one trusts in Christ alone, he believes that it is Christ's work alone that saves.
<<You are telling people that believers must believe that Christ's work makes the difference. That is what you said Marc. But that is not what saves, is it?>>
No it is not. And belief in Christ alone is not what saves, either. If anyone believes that ANY kind of belief is what saves, no matter WHAT kind of belief that is, then it is works salvation. God ALONE saves. Belief does not save. Belief is a PROOF, a FRUIT, a RESULT of salvation.
<<Any fool can say that Christ's work alone makes the difference, and any fool can consign others to Hell for not consistently saying that too, as indeed your ministry does.>>
Any fool can say that he trusts in Christ alone for salvation. But what does he MEAN by it? Does he know WHO Christ is and WHAT Christ did? If not, then "trusting in Christ alone for salvation" is absolutely meaningless.
<<You need to tell sinners that they are lost and blind and dead in sin, and need mercy from a Holy God who is angry with sinners. They need to cast themselves upon His mercy and cling to Jesus Christ.>>
<<You believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference. You need to trust in Christ Marc, not His work.>>
Wow. There it is. Think about what tartanarmy just said. tartanarmy believes that trusting in Christ is DIFFERENT than trusting in the WORK of Christ. He attempts to separate CHRIST from His WORK. He separates CHRIST from the ATONING BLOOD of CHRIST. He believes that someone can believe in CHRIST without believing in Christ's WORK -- that he can believe in some "christ" that actually accomplished NOTHING. A non-atoning christ. A non-redeeming christ. A non-propitiating christ. There you go. No more needs to be said.
To God alone be the glory,
Marc D. Carpenter