I'd like to respond to some of Kacy's comments.

==I must say that any gospel that invovles Christ + something else is just a new form of the Galation heresy.==

==Apparantly I am a heretic because I believe one is saved by Christ alone rather than the knowledge of the doctrines of grace.==

==We must always remember that we are justified by Christ's perfect obedience for us in His life, death, and resurrection. We are not justified by believing in justification by faith alone nor are we justified by believing in predestination (as this charater seems to think).==

Kacy, you have no idea what we believe. We do not believe that the gospel consists of Christ + something else. We do not believe that one is saved by a knowledge of the doctrines of grace. We do not believe that we are justified by believing in justification by faith alone. We do not believe we are justified by believing in predestination. These are all false accusations. These are all lies. These are all slander.

We believe that salvation is conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ ALONE, not on anything else. Not on belief of any doctrines. Not even on belief of the gospel! Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/doctregen.htm and www.outsidethecamp.org/credenda.htm . You are involved in deadly confusion. You confuse CONDITIONS of salvation with FRUITS of salvation. Belief of the gospel is an IMMEDIATE and NECESSARY FRUIT of salvation, not a CONDITION or PREREQUISITE of salvation. And what does belief of the gospel include? Does it include any doctrines? Of course it does. Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/egd.htm . The doctrines of Christ's PERSON and Christ's WORK are at the very heart of the gospel. If you do not believe these two doctrines, you do not believe the gospel. Does that mean that belief in Christ's person and work are prerequisites or conditions of salvation? No way. They are immediate fruits of regeneration. As soon as God regenerates someone, He causes that person to believe the gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of the God-Man, Jesus Christ. Thus, that person immediately believes that it is the work of Jesus Christ that makes the only difference between salvation and damnation. Do universal atonement advocates believe this? No. They believe that it is the work of the sinner that makes the difference. This is the damnable false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner.

Kacy, now's the time to expose your hypocrisy. You say that we believe in a gospel of Christ + knowledge of doctrine. You say we believe we are justified by belief in knowledge of doctrine. Yet here's what you say:

==Essentials would be beliefs such as: belief in the virgian birth, belief in the Trinity, belief in the resurrection, basically I would say belief in the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed==

Oh, Kacy? Really? So does that mean you believe in a gospel of Christ + knowledge of the doctrines of the virgin birth, the Trinity, the resurrection, the Apostle's Creed, and the Nicene Creed? Well??? Do you believe that we are justified by a knowledge of the doctrines of the virgin birth, the Trinity, the resurrection, the Apostle's Creed, and the Nicene Creed? Well???

If not, then your whole argument against us falls to the ground. You, too, believe that all Christians believe certain things. If I would accuse you of holding to a false gospel of grace + belief, you'd say we've slandered you, would you not? Well, you have slandered us.

Salvation is by the work of Christ alone. There are certain essential doctrines that every believer believes upon regeneration. These doctrines include the very heart of the gospel -- the PERSON and the WORK of Jesus Christ. The PERSON of Jesus Christ is the God-Man Mediator. The WORK of Jesus Christ is establishing a righteousness that ensures and demands the salvation of all whom He represented. If you don't have both of these, you don't have the gospel.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


I'd like to comment on some of the comments that have been left here.

==I appreciate what you're trying to do, but just think about your own beliefs: if our salvation REALLY is based on Christ's sacrifice and God's unconditional election of us, then the EXACT understanding we have of the mechanics of said salvation doesn't matter to the effecting of that salvation. In other words, you yourself provide the basis for tolerance of "Arminians." Just think about that.==

OF COURSE one's understanding of the mechanics of salvation doesn't matter to the effecting of that salvation. That's not what we believe at all. That would be salvation conditioned on the sinner, as you rightly point out. Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/doctregen.htm and www.outsidethecamp.org/credenda.htm . Salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone. When God regenerates a person, He gives that person a knowledge and understanding of the GOSPEL - the good news of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. This understanding is NOT a PREREQUISITE to salvation; it is a NECESSARY FRUIT of salvation. Thus, all who have been saved believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. Those who believe in universal atonement DO NOT believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference; instead, they believe that it is the effort of the SINNER that makes the difference. And this is a damnable false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner.

==Your doctrine of sanctification through faith alone may be accurate, but your judgemental, hateful spirit towards those of other persuasions is wrong. The Bible says in Matthew that we are not to judge others.==

True Christians are COMMANDED to judge others. Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/rightjudg.htm .

==We are justified by Christ alone and not by believing in justification by faith alone nor are we justified by believing in predestination or any other tenat of reformed theology. ... Is it important to believe in predestination? Yes! Does believing in predestination save you? No!==

Here's another accusation against us. This person accuses us of believing in justification by believing in certain doctrines and of believing that believing in predestination is what saves. This is a total lie. Belief is not what saves. It is the work of Christ that saves. Belief is what comes as an ESSENTIAL, IMMEDIATE FRUIT of salvation. And the GOSPEL is what is believed. See additional comments above that apply here as well.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


To Sean:

You wrote:

"No, I am not interested in your site. I have seen your site before, and I believe that the gospel does not consist in condemning to damnation all those outside your congregation ."

We, too, do not believe that the gospel consists of condemning to damnation all those outside our congregation.

(1) The gospel consists of the good news of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone.

(2) We do not condemn to damnation those who are unregenerate. Among those who are unregenerate, we do not judge who is elect and who is reprobate. Thus, we do not say that any particular unregenerate person will be damned to hell. We judge saved and lost, not elect and reprobate.

(3) Our congregation is a small part of all believers in the world. In fact, most believers are outside our congregation. Thus, to say that we condemn all outside our congregation is just a flat-out lie, just like the lies addressed in #1 and #2.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


<<I don't think it should be outside the camp. It is outside the clique, those few who believe like me and confess teh same thing as me. This surely shrinks Christianity to me and my sect, which is truly "catholicity". I am glad that you have damned 99.999% of Christians that have ever lived. We are now saved by assent to propositions alone. I am sorry, this is not Christianity, but Gnosticism. To bad the church catholic condemned Gnosticism from its earliest times.>>

My response:

It most certainly is OUTSIDE the clique. It is OUTSIDE the clique of self-righteous religion. We have not damned anyone. That is God's job. We have said that people are unregenerate, as evidenced by the fact that they do not believe the gospel. We are not saved by assent to propositions; we are saved by the work of Jesus Christ alone. And when God saves His people, He causes them to assent to certain propositions about the PERSON of Christ and the WORK of Christ. What is faith? It is assent to propositions. Show me proposition-less faith.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


Some comments on Dan's comments:

==Faith without works is dead - so a faith that is merely assent to propositions is dead. (I got that from James). So, there is no propositionless faith, but there is also not workless faith. They can be distinguished, but not separated.==

Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/faithworks.htm . Faith is assent to propositions. But if someone claims to assent to gospel propositions but does not have works, this assent is actually FALSE assent. It is FALSE faith. It is DEAD faith. The person actually does not TRULY assent to the gospel propositions if he does not have works. On the other hand, works without faith are dead. Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/worksfaith.htm . One can be a very moral, zealous, sincere religionist, but if he doesn't believe the gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Christ alone, his works are dead works.

==Now, you say "And when God saves His people, He causes them to assent to certain propositions about the PERSON of Christ and the WORK of Christ." Prove it with scripture. You show me where God makes his people calvenists when they are saved.==

Since when did assent to propositions about the person and work of Christ equal Calvinism? I'm not a Calvinist. I'm a Christian. I believe the gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Christ alone. You need proof that when God saves His people, He causes them to believe the gospel doctrines of the person and work of Christ? You mean to tell me you think that some regenerate people do not believe in the deity of Christ? Some regenerate people do not believe in the atonement of Christ? Well, if you want Scripture, check out the series of sermons on the gospel at www.outsidethecamp.org/sermons.htm . It is chock full of Scripture.

==The thing that saves you is a belief that Christ died for your sins==

Absolutely not. Belief does not save. Christ alone saves. We've just seen your own version of salvation conditioned on the sinner.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


Ah, the tired old argument that "an Arminian is a Calvinist on his knees." As long as a person believes that it is not the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, it matters not what they sound like. When they pray, even while they are asking God to save someone, they believe that Jesus died for that person and do not believe that His death guarantees, ensures, demands the salvation of that person. When they evangelize, they talk of a god who loves everyone without exception and desires to save everyone without exception. Their thoughts are permeated with the false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. Their heterodoxy annuls their professed orthodoxy.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


It's funny - people like to list those who are in the Heterodoxy Hall of Shame, as if this in and of itself will just make people shrink back in horror. How dare we touch these "fathers of the faith," these "men of God"?! Yet where are the comments on what these people actually SAID? Sadly, that's lacking. It shows that people like you are respecters of men rather than God. By the way, the list is not made up of all the people we have stopped endorsing; most of them we have never endorsed. Another by the way: You wrote in another forum: "Second since when has salvation ben based on how much we know." Salvation has never been and will never be based on how much we know. This is a common straw man that is built against us. We have never said this. This would be salvation conditioned on the sinner. Salvation is based on the work of Jesus Christ alone, period. When God saves someone, He gives that person a knowledge and understanding of THE GOSPEL. The Gospel contains DOCTRINE. The heart of the gospel is the doctrine of Christ's PERSON and Christ's WORK. If you have these wrong, you don't believe the gospel. Knowledge of gospel doctrine is not a prerequisite or condition of salvation; it is a necessary and essential and immediate FRUIT of salvation.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


Hello, Matt -

I see you're from the Raleigh area. I'm a Duke grad.

I saw how you responded to Andrew, and I'd like to respond to your response.

You wrote:

==I agree with what you say about the Gospel that portrays the sovereignty of God is the Gospel portrayed in the bible, but to go to the extreme and say that one can only be saved by absolutely pure doctrine is akin to a "Calvinist Gnosticism."==

First of all, I'd like you to go to Andrew's Xanga web site and see what I wrote there. That would answer your objections, I think. But I still want to answer them here.

(1) One is not saved "by absolutely pure doctrine" or by ANY doctrine, pure or impure! One is saved by the work of Jesus Christ alone!

(2) When God saves someone, he causes that person to believe THE GOSPEL, which is the good news of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. That means that every saved person believes that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. Does the universal atonement advocate believe this? No. He believes that it is his own effort that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. He believes in a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner.

(3) When you talk of "absolutely pure doctrine," you imply that the difference between the false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner (which includes universal atonement, or Arminianism) and the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Christ alone (which I do NOT call Calvinism) is a matter of DEGREE rather than KIND. You think Arminianism is the SAME gospel you believe, just a LESS PURE version of the true gospel. The truth is that Arminianism is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT gospel than the true gospel. It is a DIFFERENT KIND of "gospel." It comes in the name of Christ, but it is NOT just a "less consistent" or "less pure" version of the true gospel. I encourage you to read the articles on www.outsidethecamp.org, especially the letters section.

(4) For an article on "Calvinist Gnosticism," see www.outsidethecamp.org/review81(2).htm .

You wrote:

==Do I agree with John Wesley's theology? Absolutely not, but to call into question his salvation is another issue. John Wesley, though he erred in theology, definitely proved his adoption by the works that exuded from his faith.==

(1) Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/wesley.htm .

(2) You judge Wesley to be saved because of his works. That is how you make your judgments. So someone can have "errors in his theology," but prove by his works that he is adopted. Okay. How about the error of the deity of Christ? Can a person believe that Christ is not God and yet prove from his works that he is saved? How about all those moral Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists who do good works? Do their good works prove that they are saved? Your standard of judgment is absolutely wrong. The only true standard of judgment is THE GOSPEL. What gospel do they believe? While it is true that faith without works is dead, it is also true that works without faith are dead! See www.outsidethecamp.org/worksfaith.htm . And for an article on right judgment, see www.outsidethecamp.org/rightjudg.htm .

==I doubt the thief on the cross could elequently produce a systematic thelogy, but he was in paradise that very day nonetheless.==

Ah, the thief on the cross! The tolerant Calvinists love to use the thief on the cross!

(1) We have NEVER said that all Christians must be able to "eloquently produce a systematic theology"! That is just a flat-out false accusation! We say that all Christians BELIEVE the GOSPEL! It's that simple! The thief on the cross BELIEVED the GOSPEL!

(2) For an article on The Thief on the Cross, please see www.outsidethecamp.org/letters72(1).htm .

==This does not excuse the ignorance and abandoment of correct theology, but how many people at their conversion could thoughtfully articulate the Doctrines of Grace?==

We have NEVER said that every Christian can articulate their beliefs! That's not what it's all about! It's about BELIEF of the GOSPEL! Are you getting the message here?

Now what about a universal atonement advocate? He has articulated a belief! And what has he articulated? He has articulated that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception! He has confessed a false gospel! He has said that the atonement is not effectual! He has shown himself to be unregenerate, no matter what "good works" he has! Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/gospatone.htm .

==Your advocation seems to logically end in an attainment of salvation, not by works, but by learning a correct theology, which is also a works salvation.==

Absolutely not. This is where my other post on Anthony's site would help. Attainment of salvation is NOT by learning a correct theology! You correctly say that this is a works salvation! If we believed this, we would show ourselves to be unregenerate! Learning correct theology is NOT a prerequisite or condition of salvation! NOTHING a person does or is enabled to do is a prerequisite or condition of salvation! NOTHING!! Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/doctregen.htm . Salvation is the work of God ALONE, with NO contribution AT ALL from the sinner. So attainment of salvation is not based on ANY BELIEF in ANY THEOLOGY.

Now what happens when God saves someone? He immediately causes that person to BELIEVE the GOSPEL. (Do I sound like a broken record?) And what do all who BELIEVE the GOSPEL believe? They believe in the PERSON of Christ (God-Man Mediator) and the WORK of Christ (establishing a righteousness that ensures and demands the salvation of all whom He represented through His atoning blood and imputed righteousness). There's not a single regenerate person who does not believe in Christ's PERSON and Christ's WORK. And those who believe in universal atonement do NOT believe some "lesser version" of the true gospel -- they believe in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT gospel!

I hope you got it. I would be very happy to correspond with you further about these things. You can go to the web site (www.outsidethecamp.org) and click on the e-mail address to e-mail me.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


Noel wrote: "We can not judge the salvation of others, most especially those who profess Christ as savior. Nor can we condition salvation upon the knowledge of the doctrines of grace."

(1) Christians are COMMANDED to judge the salvation of others. I guess Noel cannot obey the command not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers, since he doesn't judge who the unbelievers are. See www.outsidethecamp.org/rightjudg.htm. We are not to judge whether or not someone is going to hell, but we ARE to judge whether or not someone is currently unregenerate.

(2) We DO NOT condition salvation upon a knowledge of the doctrines of grace. This is a blatantly false accusation. Salvation is not conditioned on ANYTHING that the person does or is enabled to do. Salvation is not conditioned on a knowledge of ANY doctrines. It is conditioned on the work of Christ ALONE. Now what happens when God saves someone? Does He leave that person without any knowledge? No. He causes that person to believe the gospel, which includes KNOWLEDGE of certain things, including the WORK of Jesus Christ. So a KNOWLEDGE of the WORK of Jesus Christ is not a prerequisite of salvation; it is an immediate and inevitable FRUIT of salvation. Get the difference?

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


Drthunderpants wrote: "Who are we to say who will or will not go to hell. Especially if they are alive, for they still may yet be saved."

We have never said that certain persons will go to hell. You're putting words in our mouths. It is not up to Christians to judge who among the unregenerate will end up in hell. Christians are not to make this judgment; they do not know whom God will save later in their lives. But Christians ARE to judge all who confess a false gospel to be currently unregenerate. See www.outsidethecamp.org/rightjudg.htm.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


AndyBreaksEverything wrote: "How can a group of Christians state that other believers that also call on the name of Christ as Savior are lost? The Bible does not, EVER, speak of theology as a indication or a condition of salvation, just that Christ is proclaimed as Lord."

(1) None of us at Outside the Camp believe that knowledge of theology is a condition of salvation. This is a blatantly false accusation. Salvation is not conditioned on ANYTHING that the person does or is enabled to do. Salvation is not conditioned on a knowledge of ANY doctrines. It is conditioned on the work of Christ ALONE. Now what happens when God saves someone? Does He leave that person without any knowledge? No. He causes that person to believe the gospel, which includes KNOWLEDGE of certain things, including the WORK of Jesus Christ. So a KNOWLEDGE of the WORK of Jesus Christ is not a prerequisite of salvation; it is an immediate and inevitable FRUIT of salvation. Get the difference?

(2) The Bible most certainly does speak of a knowledge of doctrine as an indication of salvation. Belief of the gospel is an indication of salvation, is it not? Where is such a monstrosity as belief of the gospel without knowledge of doctrine? There's no such thing as a doctrine-less gospel. The gospel contains doctrine about the PERSON and the WORK of Jesus Christ. This is the very heart of the gospel. If you get these things wrong, you don't believe the gospel. What do universal atonement advocates believe? What do they believe about the work of Christ? Do they believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation? No, they don't. They don't believe that the work of Christ ensures and demands the salvation of everyone whom Christ represented. They believe a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. Thus, true Christians will judge these people to be unregenerate.

To God alone be the glory,



Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


Adam wrote:

"It's like the Church of Christ turned Reformed and started adding more requirements to salvation."

This is just plain slander. We do not add any requirements to salvation. There are NO requirements the sinner must meet as a condition for salvation. JESUS CHRIST met all the requirements. Salvation is not conditioned on ANYTHING the sinner does or is enabled to do. Knowledge is not a prerequisite. Faith is not a prerequisite. Belief of doctrines is not a prerequisite. Am I making myself clear? Now what Now what happens when God saves someone? Does He leave that person without any knowledge? No. He causes that person to believe the gospel, which includes KNOWLEDGE of certain things, including the WORK of Jesus Christ. So a KNOWLEDGE of the WORK of Jesus Christ is not a prerequisite of salvation; it is an immediate and inevitable FRUIT of salvation. Get the difference?

Adam then wrote:

"'Course, JW's deny Christ's deity in John 1 and Mormons say that in order for Christ's atonement to be sufficient, we have to cleanse ourselves from all unrighteousness. JW's and Mormons I do not call my brothers."

Hey, wait a minute! Aren't you "adding more requirements to salvation" by saying that Mormons and JWs are unregenerate? Aren't you saying that knowledge of the person and work of Christ are requirements of salvation? Aren't you being judgmental?

What hypocrisy.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


Vinca wrote:

==However, it is not my place to look at their theology and say, "They are not saved." For all I know, they are members of the elect and while they may not yet be convinced of the truth, God is bringing them about. The problem is, I don't know that they are elect or not. It seems that, from your guestbook post, you are saying that if they do not believe the truth, they are not elect, therefore I should not "bless" them. I do not believe that it is my place or your place to judge other professing Christians. Yes, for all we know they may be soundly screwed up, and not truly believing in Jesus Christ. They may be condemned to hell.But is it our place to judge them according to where we think they're going? ==

Saved is different than elect. Someone might be elect and unsaved. So when we say someone is unsaved, we do not say they are not elect. It IS the Christian's place to look at a person's theology and say they are not saved. If they believe a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner, the person is not saved. Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/rightjudg.htm .

==Also: I have a very dear Arminian friend. I don't believe the thought ever occurred to her to enter into heaven through her own works. I know for a fact that she is resting on Jesus Christ alone for her salvation.==



Oh? You do? Well, then, Vinca, you have just JUDGED that person's spiritual state, haven't you? You just got finished saying that we shouldn't judge, and then, in the same post, you JUDGED! Do I sense a bit of hypocrisy here?

The fact is that you DO judge. And the question is then: By what STANDARD do you make your judgment? If it is not by THE GOSPEL, then you are judging by the WRONG STANDARD. The gospel is God's promise of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. Those who believe in the gospel believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. Universal atonement advocates do not believe this. They believe in a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner.

Here's a sermon you should take a look at: www.outsidethecamp.org/romans10.htm .

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


smarterthanhelooks said, "That accusation was a little extreme. Consider this: until about 2 years ago, I was an Arminian. Did salvation come when I aligned my views (on salvation!) with Calvinism?"

I'll paste a similar statement and response that you can find at www.outsidethecamp.org/letters44.htm :

==I became a Calvinist in 1995. I believe I came to faith in '91. Becoming a Calvinist was a process. I must confess that I did not fight it kicking and screaming, I pursued it gradually --- or it pursued me. However, I would have to consider myself an Arminian or semi-Pelagian up until I became a five point C. After all, muddled thought is not Calvinistic when it comes to TULIP. Would you assert that I was not regenerate with saving faith from '91 until I embraced limited atonement?==

Editor's Reply: I would assert (because the Bible asserts) that you are still not regenerate. Your Arminianism was an abomination to God, and your Calvinism is an abomination to God. When one truly repents of believing a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner, then he counts his former religion as loss and dung (Philippians 3:7-8). Even though you "became" a "Calvinist" in 1995, you still do not consider your former religion as dung. You do not believe that while you were in this religion, you were a God-hater, bringing forth dead works and fruit unto death.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


I know why the Calvinists on Xanga (and most Calvinists) are so quick to say that we add conditions for salvation. It's because they believe that FAITH is a condition! And they believe that we ADD MORE CONDITIONS to FAITH!

Another thing I've noticed about most of the Calvinists' Xanga sites: they're really into worldliness. Many of the women are dressed like whores, they're into the whole lust and dating scene, and they're into the wicked movies and TV shows that have sex/sexual innuendo and/or violence in them.



Marc


==The one thing I said to y'all about my Arminian friend was not intended to look the way it looked. My bad. I did not mean to say that I knew she was saved, or that she was one of the elect. I meant to say that she professed to be a Christian, and that it would be and is unChristian to say that she is not my sister in Christ merely because she is not a Calvinist.

I honestly think you need to rethink your theology. This is not what Calvinism is about.

I do not believe that your theology saves you. Jesus Christ saves you, not the fact that you are Calvinist. Theology is a factor that will inevitably help or hurt you, but it will not save you.

If this is way you approach Calvinism, that it is the "only good," and that all others are Lost, well...I'm sorry. I don't think that's what Calvinism is about.

Calvinism is a theology that was, I would remind you, formed by man. The gospel message was written by God.

The Gospel, not Calvinism, saves men.

The blood of Jesus, not a theology (no matter how rock-solid and Biblically based) delivers souls.

I'm not saying this because I know who is saved. I am saying this because I know what the Bible says, and I know what I believe.==

I totally agree that theology does not save. The fact that you even mentioned it is an accusation that we believe that theology saves. Theology DOES NOT SAVE. Is that clear enough? Only the work of Christ saves. And when God saves someone through the work of Christ, what is the immediate fruit of that salvation? BELIEF. Belief of what? Belief of the GOSPEL. And the GOSPEL contains DOCTRINE about the PERSON and WORK of CHRIST. Thus, every true Christian believes in the PERSON of Christ and the WORK of Christ. Every true Christian believes that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. What about universal atonement advocates? They DO NOT believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation; instead, they believe that it is their OWN EFFORT that makes the difference. This is a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner.

Now does that mean I believe that only Calvinists are saved? No way. In fact, I'm not a Calvinist!! So if I believed only Calvinists were saved, I'd be saying I'M not saved. That wouldn't make sense, now, would it? Yes, I know that Calvinism was a theology formed by man - an unregenerate man. Please see www.outsidethecamp.org/norefcal.htm .

It is very interesting that YOU were the one who interjected Calvinism into the debate. I said nothing about Calvinism. I talk about THE GOSPEL as what true Christians believe, NOT CALVINISM. The gospel is God's promise to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. There is not a single Arminian who believes this. All Arminians are unregenerate. And the only loving thing to do with Arminians is to tell them they are lost and their deeds are evil and preach the gospel to them. Those whom God has chosen from the foundation of the world will repent and believe.

What do you believe about the gospel? Well, it's obvious that you believe that someone can hold to universal atonement and believe the gospel at the same time. Thus, you DO NOT believe that the efficacious atonement of Jesus Christ is part of the gospel. It is actually the HEART of the gospel, but you don't even believe it's PART of the gospel, because if you did, you'd have to admit that all Arminians do not believe the gospel. So you, just like the Arminians, are in the same boat -- you are lost and your deeds are evil. REPENT and BELIEVE the TRUE GOSPEL! I would rejoice to see God save you!

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter

www.outsidethecamp.org


Hi, I'm the editor of Outside the Camp. I noticed you had some things to say about it, and I'd like to respond.

You wrote: "I wholeheartedly agree with mtrembl1. I do not see the love of Christ in any of the outside the camp material. In fact, I see it as being very hateful."

Please see the sermons "True and False Love" at www.outsidethecamp.org/truefalse8.htm and www.outsidethecamp.org/truefalse9.htm. If a doctor knew a patient had a deadly disease and knew the cure, would it be loving for that doctor to tell the patient that everything is okay? Of course not. It would be hateful. The loving thing would be to tell the patient that he has the disease and show him the cure. When you tell universal atonement advocates that everything is okay, you manifest your hatred toward them.

You wrote, "The Bible never says that we must believe all five tennants on Calvinism to go to Heaven."

Absolutely true. Please show me where the web site ever says this. Please show me where Calvinism is ever mentioned in a good light on the site. I don't care about Calvinism. What matters is THE GOSPEL. Those who believe THE GOSPEL are saved. Those who do not believe THE GOSPEL are lost. THE GOSPEL is the good news of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. Thus, all who believe THE GOSPEL believe that it is the work of Jesus Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation.

You wrote: "'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,' it says."

It most certainly does. And what does it mean to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"? It means to believe on the PERSON and the WORK of the Lord Jesus Christ. Do universal atonement advocates believe on the WORK of the Lord Jesus Christ? Absolutely NOT. Please see "Gospel Atonement" at www.outsidethecamp.org.gospatone.htm .

You wrote: "I may disagree with people who see different views of doctrine than I do, but in no way do I think that they are going to hell. If they believe Christ died for their sins, have acknolwedged their need for Him, and have asked Him into their life as Lord and Savior, they are going to Heaven."

First of all, among those who are lost (unregenerate), I do not know who God will save and who God will not save. So I do not say that all lost (unregenerate) people are going to go to hell. God will save some of them. Secondly, where in your list is belief of the gospel? Mark 16:16 says that those who do not believe the gospel shall be damned.

You wrote, "Whether they believe this was predestined or their own free will is not the matter. . . it's something that will grow as their faith deepens."

Oh? So a Christian can "grow" from believing a false gospel of salvation conditioned on himself to believing the true gospel of salvation conditioned on Christ alone? That's what "deepening faith" is? On the contrary, every Christian, from the newborn in Christ to one who has been saved for a long time, believes the same gospel. All believe that it is Christ's work alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation.

You wrote, "But I smell a lot of legalism here and a whole lot of Pharisee-ism."

Do you even know what legalism and Phariseeism is? See "Legalism and Antinomianism" at www.outsidethecamp.org/legalantinom.htm . Also, see "What Is A Pharisee?" at www.outsidethecamp.org/pharisee.htm .

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


Dear Daniel,

Salvation is conditioned SOLELY on the work of Jesus Christ. It is not conditioned on ANYTHING the sinner does or is enabled to do. It is not conditioned on belief in the doctrines of grace. It is not conditioned on belief in ANYTHING! Now when God saves someone, He immediately gives that person a knowledge and belief of THE GOSPEL. Belief of the gospel is an immediate and inevitable FRUIT of salvation. And the gospel contains DOCTRINE. The gospel contains DOCTRINE about the PERSON of Christ and the WORK of Christ. Belief in this doctrine is NOT a requirement or prerequisite or condition of salvation; it is a FRUIT or RESULT of salvation. Do you get the distinction?

Every true Christian believes THE GOSPEL. This means that every true Christian believes that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. What about the Arminian, who believes that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception? He does NOT believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation; instead, he believes that it is his OWN effort that makes the difference. Thus, he does NOT believe the gospel and shows that he is NOT saved.

See www.outsidethecamp.org/doctregen.htm and www.outsidethecamp.org/credenda.htm .

I'm posting a letter below that I wrote to James White and also attaching some other things I've written to Xanga bloggers.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


==Just out of curiousity... What do you believe that a man must do in order to be saved???==

==Dude just noticed your comment on my guestbook(i dont check it very often). Uhh yeah thats where i disagree with you. I don't think you have to believe in the doctrines of grace to be saved. I believe you are sorely mistaken if you dont (and i dont have a problem going so far as to say that arminians have a works-based religion) and i will try to reason with you and pray that God show you the truth, but i believe there are genuine believers who are mixed up in the arminian movement. I dont recall Paul in Romans 10:9 making belief in the doctrines of grace a requirement for salvation. Keep in touch man, I love discussing these things.==

To Casey and Daniel:

Salvation is conditioned SOLELY on the work of Jesus Christ. It is not conditioned on ANYTHING the sinner does or is enabled to do. It is not conditioned on belief in the doctrines of grace. It is not conditioned on belief in ANYTHING! Now when God saves someone, He immediately gives that person a knowledge and belief of THE GOSPEL. Belief of the gospel is an immediate and inevitable FRUIT of salvation. And the gospel contains DOCTRINE. The gospel contains DOCTRINE about the PERSON of Christ and the WORK of Christ. Belief in this doctrine is NOT a requirement or prerequisite or condition of salvation; it is a FRUIT or RESULT of salvation. Do you get the distinction?

Every true Christian believes THE GOSPEL. This means that every true Christian believes that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. What about the Arminian, who believes that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception? He does NOT believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation; instead, he believes that it is his OWN effort that makes the difference. Thus, he does NOT believe the gospel and shows that he is NOT saved.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


freekafide wrote: "Wow, bible study was really convicting tonight. We talked a lot about the urgent position of the lost and how we Christians tend to not really care. We label them 'non-christians' as if they merely had a difference of opinion. Paul, however, labels them the perishing. ouch."

Yet you believe that those who hold to universal atonement are NOT "the perishing." You believe that the difference between your view and the view of universal atonement advocates (those who believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception) is just a difference of opinion. You believe that the difference between the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Christ alone and the false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner (most commonly manifested as Arminianism) is merely one of degree and not one of kind. You believe that these brothers of yours are just "less mature" than you are. Proof? You just wrote the following on my site:

"I agree. Belief in the doctrines of grace is a fruit of salvation. However, I believe it is the fruit of a christian whom God has allowed to mature beyond where our Armenian brothers are. I will not be convinced that being an arminian is being lost. I know too many people who are genuine Christians who do not hold to the doctrines of grace, and I am saddened that you would try to make the task of convincing them of these doctrines all the harder by telling them they are lost, rather than argue with them from the common ground of our salvation."

Of course you will not be convinced that being an Arminian is being lost. Of course you agree that you and the Arminians have a common ground of salvation. This is not a surprise at all, because you do not believe the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. You do not believe that an atonement that actually atoned is an essential part of the gospel. You are just as unregenerate as your Arminian brothers in Satan.

Consider: (1) You believe that some who believe universal atonement are saved. (2) You believe that all saved people believe the gospel. Thus, (3) you believes that some who believe universal atonement believe the gospel.

What does this show about your belief about the gospel? Since you believe a person can believe the gospel and believe universal atonement at the same time, then he must believe that the gospel does not include the efficacious atonement of Jesus Christ. You have just denied the very heart of the gospel.

Finally, consider the following logic: (1) All who believe a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner are unregenerate. (2) Universal atonement is a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. Thus, (3) all who believe universal atonement are unregenerate. You and every person who would consider at least some universal atonement advocates to be regenerate MUST disagree with #3. And the only way people can disagree with #3 is if they disagree with at least one of the first two statements. Consider those who disagree with #1. These are people who believe that at least some who believe a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner are regenerate. Can a true Christian disagree with #1? Of course not. Consider those who disagree with #2. These are people who believe that universal atonement is not a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. Can a true Christian disagree with #2? Of course not. Thus, all who disagree with #3 (all who consider at least some universal atonement advocates to be saved) are unregenerate. This includes you.

It is no wonder that God says that anyone who speaks peace to a person who brings a false gospel is unregenerate (2 John 11). Those who say that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception deny that the death of Christ actually pardoned, redeemed, propitiated, and reconciled. They deny that Christ's blood actually atoned. They deny that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. They deny the very heart of the gospel. They boast and glory in themselves. They are God-haters. And you who speak peace to these God-haters, who call them brothers and sisters in Christ, who say that the universal atonement advocates believe the same gospel they do, show that you, too, deny the true gospel. You deny that the atoning, pardoning, redeeming, propitiating, reconciling blood of Christ is an essential part of the gospel. You, too, do not believe the gospel. You, too, are a boaster who glories in the sinner. You, too, are a God-hater.

Please read the following articles:

Gospel Atonement www.outsidethecamp.org/gospatone.htm

"Shares in his evil works": A Study on 2 John 11 www.outsidethecamp.org/2John11.htm

Deadly Ignorance www.outsidethecamp.org/deadignor.htm

Essential Gospel Doctrine www.outsidethecamp.org/egd.htm

Gospel Repentance www.outsidethecamp.org/gosprep.htm

See also some letters and responses at www.outsidethecamp.org/letters.htm

May God open your eyes to see the truth. Repent and believe the gospel.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


freekafide wrote:

<<Lol. You amaze me. Now your going to tell me i dont believe what i confirm over and over i do, namely the doctrines of grace. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but i do hold to the doctrines of grace (or TULIP etc.). Also, unlike you ( who add to the gospel by claiming one is not saved until one accepts the doctrines of grace) i hold only to the gospel of Christ, namely that to be saved one must "believe your heart that Jesus is the Christ, and confess with your mouth that God raised Him from the dead", Romans 10:9. Yours is "another gospel".>>

I do not add to the gospel in any way to any degree. This is a false accusation. Accepting the doctrines of grace forms ABSOLUTELY NO PART of the ground of salvation. Accepting the doctrines of grace is NOT a condition or prerequisite to salvation. I have never said anything that even implied what you are accusing me of. Salvation is conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ ALONE, not on a person's acceptance of any doctrine. Salvation is TOTALLY UNCONDITIONAL. It is not conditioned on faith, as most of the "Reformed" and "Calvinist" heretics say.

Now what happens when God saves a person unconditionally? Does He leave that person in a state of unbelief? Of course not. When God saves a person unconditionally, He CAUSES that person to BELIEVE the gospel. The gospel is God's promise of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. Thus, when God causes a person to believe the gospel (as a fruit -- a result -- of salvation, NOT as a condition or prerequisite to salvation), that person believes that it is the work of Jesus Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. That person repents of believing a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. And that person makes his judgments based on the gospel that God has caused him to believe. All these are FRUITS of salvation, NOT CONDITIONS of salvation. And these fruits (repentance and belief) are IMMEDIATE and INEVITABLE fruits of salvation. Every Christian, from the newborn Christian to the most mature in the faith, believes the SAME gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ alone. That means he will NEVER believe in a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner (of which universal atonement is one false gospel), and he will NEVER speak peace to those who bring such a false gospel.

You say that your gospel is Romans 10:9. What does it MEAN that Jesus is the Christ and God raised Him from the dead? Do the universal atonement advocates believe that Jesus is the Christ and God raised Him from the dead? They do NOT. Jesus is the God-Man Mediator who lived a perfect life, who died in the place of His people, and who was raised as a testimony that God was TOTALLY SATISFIED with the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. See "Gospel Resurrection" at www.outsidethecamp.org/gospres.htm .

You, and all who are like you, remain dead in your sins.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


Jeremiah, you are EXACTLY RIGHT when you say that it is hypocritical to judge Roman Catholics to be unregenerate because of what they believe while saying that Arminians, who hold to anti-grace heresy as much as Roman Catholics do, are merely "inconsistent brothers." BOTH believe in salvation conditioned on the sinner. But instead of concluding that there are some saved Roman Catholics, the true Christian MUST conclude that BOTH Roman Catholics AND Arminians are unregenerate. They BOTH do not believe the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. They BOTH do not believe that it is the work of Jesus Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. Think about it! Yes, James White is a hypocrite. But you should not conclude from this that Roman Catholics and Arminians are saved. No -- just the opposite! Anyone who does not believe the gospel is not saved! I urge you to read an article on the most important subject in the world, which is the atonement of Jesus Christ, at www.outsidethecamp.org/gospatone.htm. The atonement is at the very heart of the gospel. If you get the atonement wrong, you automatically have a false gospel.

You wrote, "There is just one problem with that. Most RCs are raised RCs and have never had teaching from anyone other than the RCC." Why don't you replace "RC" with "Muslim"? Then your comment would be, "There is just one problem with that. Most Muslims are raised Muslims and have never had teaching from anyone other than the Muslim religion." Do you see my point here? It matters not if a person was raised in an anti-gospel environment and was only taught anti-gospel doctrine! That doesn't mean they are excused! That doesn't mean that they are regenerate! In fact, it confirms that they are NOT regenerate, since they have never heard the true gospel!

Thanks for considering this!

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


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