> 1. It's a long article, not
your own thoughts and musings. Unless, of
> course, you are the author of the article (I didn't happen to look)
Yep, these are my own thoughts and musings. I'm the author of the article entitled "Gospel Atonement." If you don't want to post it on the list, that's your prerogative. People can find it on www.outsidethecamp.org/gospatone.htm .
> 2. It's from Outside the Camp. Are you one of those who would affirm
> that Calvinists are the only ones within Christendom who are truly
Nope. It makes no difference whether or not someone calls himself a Calvinist. What matters is whether or not one believes the GOSPEL. I encourage you to read the series of sermons on the gospel at www.outsidethecamp.org/sermons.htm .
> , and that anyone who believes that inconsistent Arminians are
> saved are they themselves not saved as well?
Call them what you want -- those who believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception are unregenerate, and those who believe that universal atonement advocates believe the gospel are unregenerate, as shown in the article referenced above.
Data Rat says that Carpenter Doesn't Understand Regeneration. He says:
> Mr. Carpenter has no idea what he's talking
> about when he uses terms like 'regenerate'
> and 'unregenerate'.
First, a couple statements about regeneration and conversion, with Scripture proofs:
Regeneration (also known as the new birth) is that grace in which the Holy Spirit brings a sinner from spiritual death to spiritual life, takes away his old heart and old spirit, implants within him a new heart and a new spirit, and indwells him. He is made a new creation, dead to in and alive to God in Jesus Christ, so that he is no longer totally depraved and no longer serves sin. God's grace in regeneration is irresistible; that is, no man is able to resist the motions of the Holy Spirit to regenerate him. Regeneration is never preceded by any condition the sinner meets, can meet, or is enabled to meet. [Deu 30:6; Jer 24:7; Eze 11:19-20; 36:25-27; Zec 4:6; Joh 1:13; 3:3-8; 6:37,44,63; 10:3-5,27; 17:2; Rom 5:5; 6:1-22; 7:6; 8:2,5-16,30; 1Co 15:45; Eph 2:5; 4:22-24; Col 2:11-13; Tit 3:5; Heb 9:13-15; 1Pe 1:23]
Conversion is that grace in which the Holy Spirit causes the sinner to repent and believe the gospel. The regenerate person is given a knowledge and understanding of the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ alone and the realization that he was unregenerate when he believed a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. He counts all of his former life and deeds, whether religious or irreligious, as dead works, evil deeds, and fruit unto death. Conversion is the immediate and inevitable fruit of regeneration; therefore, a person may not be regenerated without being converted. There has never existed and will never exist a regenerate person who is ignorant of the gospel. Scripture rejects the lie that an unregenerate person can be under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, since the Holy Spirit only leads people to Jesus Christ and His righteousness as the only ground of salvation. [Deu 4:34-35; Isa 45:6,20-25; Mat 13:23; Mar 16:16; Joh 6:40; 8:32; 16:8-11; 17:3; Act 16:14-15; Rom 1:16-17; 3:26; 6:17,21; 7:6; 1Co 2:10-12; 2Co 4:2-6; Eph 1:13; Phi 3:7-8; 2Th 2:13-14; Heb 9:14; 1Jo 5:20]
Now some further thoughts and questions:
Conversion is the immediate and inevitable fruit of regeneration. At conversion, the sinner is given KNOWLEDGE.
"And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (Jn. 17:3). What KNOWLEDGE is involved in KNOWING God and Christ, which is eternal life?
"And ye shall KNOW the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). What is the TRUTH that God's people KNOW that sets them free? "... they have no KNOWLEDGE that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray to a god that cannot save" (Is. 45:20b). What is this KNOWLEDGE that these idolaters are missing?
"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to KNOWLEDGE" (Rm. 10:2). What is this KNOWLEDGE that these lost religionists are missing?
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. ... For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the KNOWLEDGE of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Cor. 4:3-6). What is this LIGHT that the lost people BLINDED to? What is the light of the KNOWLEDGE of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ that has shined in believer's hearts?
"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of DOCTRINE which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness" (Romans 6:17-18). What is that DOCTRINE that believers believed when they were made free from sin?
> Regeneration ain't like that. It's a liberation
> of mind, affection, and will, from the corruption
> of Original Sin ...NOT a diploma from
> Westminster Theological Seminary !
I'm not talking about some "higher doctrine" that only seminarians can understand. I'm talking about THE GOSPEL. Every regenerate person believes THE GOSPEL. If you do not believe this, then you must think that there are some regenerate Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists out there.
> Regeneration makes it POSSIBLE to know
> that Limited Atonement and Unconditional
> Election are true. In itself, being Born Again
> provides no information.
> Regeneration is re-generation. We're returned
> to Adam's pre-Fall state of volitional freedom
> and mental innocence. Re-generation. It's a
> turning of hearts of stone into hearts of flesh.
> It's NOT informational, doctrinal, or didactic.
Agreed that regeneration
makes it possible to know the truth and is not in and of itself
And conversion, which is the immediate fruit of regeneration, involves belief
of the truth, and IS doctrinal.
> Unregenerate people can't accept Limited
> Atonement or Conditional Election. Yet, being
> regenerated DOESN'T mean you do ...only that
> you can and ultimately shall.
What if I said this:
"Unregenerate people can't accept the deity of Christ. Yet, being regenerated DOESN'T mean you do ... only that you can and ultimately shall." Would you agree with that statement?
> Some of the regenerate Elect arrive there sooner
> than others. It took the Genevan Rodent a year
> and a half. Not after his regeneration, but after
> his conversion ! ( Bro. Rat wasn't converted until
> three years post-regeneration. )
> regenerate people aren't even converted yet...
> much less all squared away doctrinally !
Ah, now we see the Data Rat's time-lapse heresy. So Data Rat DOES believe that it is possible for a regenerate person to be a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist. Data Rat DOES believe that it is possible for a regenerate person to deny the deity of Christ. See www.outsidethecamp.org/review52.htm regarding the heresy that regenerate people do not believe the gospel. The Bible is clear that all who do not believe the gospel, all who do not believe in the person and work of Christ, are unregenerate. DataRat does not believe this.
> You can't tell ANYTHING about a person's
> regeneration from their doctrinal beliefs.
You sure can. Those who do not believe the gospel are unregenerate (Mark 16:16). Those who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are unregenerate (Romans 10:3). Those who bring a false gospel are unregenerate (2 John 9). Need more?
Now for Paul Price.
> Monsieur Carpenter wrote:
> > What matters is whether or not one believes the GOSPEL.
> What *is* the gospel?
> Is the gospel "Jesus Christ died for the elect only"?
> Or is the gospel "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life"?
The gospel is the good news of God's promise to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. You can find manuscripts from a series of sermons on the gospel at www.outsidethecamp.org/sermons.htm ; the first sermon in the series is entitled "The Gospel - What It Is." You can find a summary of essential gospel doctrine at www.outsidethecamp.org/egd.htm .
> If the first is the gospel, I never see it proclaimed that way to
> unbelievers in the Scriptures. However, many times I see our Lord's
> proclaimation, "whoever believes in the Son" (or "every one believing in
> the Son"); and the Apostles, "believe in the Lord Jesus".
Yes. So what does it MEAN to "believe in the Son" or to "believe in the Lord Jesus"? It means to believe in the PERSON of Jesus (God-man mediator) and the WORK of Jesus (his righteousness and atoning death that ensured the salvation of all whom He represented).
> Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, regardless of his belief as
> to the extent of the atonement.
Whoever truly believes in the Son (in His person and His work) will NEVER believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception. All those who truly believe in the Son believe that it is the work of the Son alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation.
> Some of us who are Reformed now have begun in arminian
> churches, and God, by His grace, showed us the truth of His word.
> So are we not regenerate until we are reformed, but just
> the elect who have yet to be regenerated? But then how can we be
> seeking after the things of God if we've not yet been
> regenerated? Isn't it possible that we might have been
> regenerate but God had not yet finished showing us fully what His
> word truly says? (Especially with the lack of emphasis on
> theology in arminian churches.)
A regenerate person does not "grow" from believing a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner to believing the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Christ alone. A regenerate person, from the moment of conversion (which is an immediate fruit of regeneration) believes the true gospel. An essential part of conversion is repentance. The regenerate person who used to be an Arminian will repent of ever believing that salvation was conditioned on the sinner, and he will realize that when he believed in a false gospel, he was bringing forth dead works, evil deeds, and fruit unto death. Please see the article entitled "Gospel Repentance" at www.outsidethecamp.org/gosprep.htm . There is also a sermon entitled "Gospel Repentance and Judgment" at www.outsidethecamp.org/gosprepjudg.htm .
Those who think they were believers when they were Arminians (1) were not believers when they were Arminians, and (2) are still not believers, since they show they have not truly repented and do not know what the gospel is.
I encourage all who are reading this to read some letters and responses that cover many of these issues. You can find them at:
To God alone be the glory,
DataRat (DR) wrote:
> Well, Mr. Carpenter, your favorite rodent doesn't
> mind debating you on this issue. But, it won't be
> much of a debate if it takes you four days to
Well, unlike some, I have a life outside of the internet. I have a wife and six children with whom I enjoy spending time, I have a full-time job, and I prepare sermons to preach and articles for the newsletter. And when I'm doing 'net-related things, I'm responding to e-mails from all around the world. So four days is actually quite good for me. Sometimes it's over a week.
By the way, since you don't mind debating me and obviously don't mind showing your colors (as seen below), why don't you give us your real name? Do you have something to hide?
Okay -- now for what DR wrote regarding the issue at hand.
This says it all:
> Are there "some regenerate Muslims, Hindus, and
> Buddhists out there" ? You bet !
Hey, everybody! Everybody on this list, look!! Did you just see what DR wrote? Did you see it? Yep, right before your very eyes, unashamedly, right out in the open, DR said that THERE ARE SOME REGENERATE MUSLIMS, HINDUS, and BUDDHISTS!!!! DR is saying that there are MUSLIMS, HINDUS, and BUDDHISTS who have been brought from spiritual death to spiritual life, who have been given a new heart, who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit!! DR is saying that there are MUSLIMS, HINDUS, and BUDDHISTS who are NOT spiritually dead!! DR cannot say that ANYONE is unregenerate! He cannot say that Louis Farrakhan! He cannot say that Mohammar Khaddafi is unregenerate! He cannot say that Fidel Castro is unregenerate! He cannot say that Satanists are unregenerate! He cannot say that Jehovah's Witnesses are unregenerate! He cannot say that abortionists are unregenerate! After all, any of these people might just be regenerate people who have not yet been converted! Does everybody get the impact of this? Is there anyone on this list who would call DR a Christian after seeing this? Is there any Christian who would say that there are some Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists who are regenerate? What is Christianity anyway? Does it welcome Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists into the fold? If this is Christianity, I want nothing to do with it. Obviously, it is NOT Christianity. I mean, this is so obvious that every Christian can see it. This isn't rocket science.
> DataRat don't play that game. Make your own arguments
> right here !
> Scripture says no such thing ! Outside-the-Camp does !
> Prove it from God's Word, pal.
You want some Scripture? Okay.
"But they will not follow a stranger, never! But they will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers" (John 10:5). God's regenerate sheep will NEVER follow a stranger and DO NOT know the voice of strangers. DR believes that some regenerate people DO follow a stranger and DO know the voice of strangers.
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me" (John 10:27). God's regenerate sheep HEAR and FOLLOW Christ. DR believes that some regenerate people DO NOT hear and DO NOT follow Christ.
"But beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inside they are plundering wolves. From their fruits you shall know them. Do they gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? So every good tree produces good fruits, but the corrupt tree produces evil fruits. A good tree cannot produce evil fruits, nor a corrupt tree produce good fruits ... Then surely from their fruits you shall know them" (Matthew 7:15-18). A good tree -- a regenerate person -- CANNOT produce evil fruits. DR believes that some good trees DO produce evil fruits. God says we shall KNOW them by their FRUITS. DR says that we CANNOT know them by their fruits, because if there is someone producing evil fruits, that person could still be a good tree.
"The good man brings forth good out of the good treasure of his heart. And the evil man brings forth evil out of the evil treasure of his heart, for his mouth speaks out of the abundance of his heart" (Luke 6:45). The fruit is the confession of the mouth. God says that the good man (a regenerate man) brings forth a confession of the true gospel and that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a regenerate man to confess a false gospel. DR believes that some regenerate people bring forth evil confessions of a false gospel.
God says that saying in one's heart, "There is no God" is indicative of lostness (Psalm 14:1); thus, it is impossible for a regenerate person to say in his heart, "There is no God." DR believes that some regenerate people say in their hearts, "There is no God."
God says that praying to a god who cannot save is indicative of lostness (Isaiah 45:20); thus, it is impossible for a regenerate person to pray to a god who cannot save. DR believes that some regenerate people pray to a god who cannot save.
God says that being ignorant of the righteousness of God, seeking to establish one's own righteousness, and not submitting to the righteousness of God are indicative of lostness (Romans 10:3); thus, it is impossible for a regenerate person to be ignorant of God's righteousness, to seek to establish his own righteousness, or to not be submitted to God's righteousness. DR believes that some regenerate people are ignorant of God's righteousness, seek to establish their own righteousness, and are not submitted to God's righteousness.
God says that preaching a false gospel is indicative of lostness (Galatians 1:8-9); thus, it is impossible for a regenerate person to preach a false gospel. DR believes that some regenerate people preach a false gospel.
God says that saying we have no sin and saying we have not sinned are indicative of lostness (1 John 1:8,10); thus, it is impossible for a regenerate person to say he has no sin or say he has not sinned. DR believes that some regenerate people say they have no sin or say they have not sinned.
God says that denying that Jesus is the Christ is indicative of lostness (1 John 2:22); thus, it is impossible for a regenerate person to deny that Jesus is the Christ. DR believes that some regenerate people deny that Jesus is the Christ.
God says that not abiding in the doctrine of Christ is indicative of lostness (2 John 9); thus, it is impossible for a regenerate person to not abide in the doctrine of Christ. DR believes that some regenerate people do not abide in the doctrine of Christ.
And what will DR do with Hebrews 11:6: "But without faith it is impossible to please God"? Are the regenerate people who do not have faith pleasing to God, or are they an abomination to God? It's either one or the other.
And while we're on the subject of what God hates, how about these verses:
"The boasters shall not set themselves before Your eyes. You hate all workers of iniquity. You shall destroy those speaking lies; Jehovah will despise the man of blood and deceit" (Psalm 5:5). According to DR, some regenerate people are boasters; some regenerate people are workers of iniquity; some regenerate people are men of blood and deceit. Yet God says He hates them and despises them.
"Jehovah tries the righteous, but His soul hates the wicked and the one loving violence" (Psalm 11:5). According to DR, some regenerate people are wicked; some regenerate people are ones loving violence. Yet God says He hates them.
"For the perverse one is hateful to Jehovah, but His intimacy is with the righteous" (Proverbs 3:32). According to DR, some regenerate people are perverse ones. Yet God says they are hateful to Him.
"He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, even both of them are disgusting to Jehovah" (Proverbs 17:15). According to DR, some regenerate people justify the wicked and condemn the just. Yet God says they are disgusting to Him.
Now it's DR's turn to prove from Scripture the damnable doctrine that some regenerate people believe in a false god and a false gospel.
> Bro. Rat would interject, however, that ...while
> regeneration makes the recipient "no longer
> totally depraved" ...neither does it totally sanctify
> him. There remains a residual sin nature.
> (SEE: 1 John 1:8, Romans 7:14-24.)
The previous quotes about regeneration and conversion came from the Christian Confession of Faith (www.outsidethecamp.org/ccf.htm). Here's the quote from the CCF on remaining sin:
When God regenerates and converts a sinner, indwelling sin is not totally removed from a believer. A believer continues to sin against God all the days of his life, and he continues to be ashamed of and to repent of his sin. But a believer's sin in no way forfeits his interest in Jesus Christ nor annuls God's covenant with him. Scripture rejects the lie that man may be freed from indwelling sin in this life; anyone who says he has no sin is an unbeliever. [1Ki 8:46; Psa 32:5; 37:24; 38:18; 41:4; 69:5; 130:3; Rom 7:14-25; Jam 5:16; 1Jo 1:8-10]
> As far as "no longer serves sin", THAT would
> be a denial of 1 John 1:8 (above).
No it would not. Sinning and serving sin are two different things. "knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin" (Romans 6:6).
> Conversion is inevitable, but NOT necessarily
> immediate. Nowhere does Scripture state
> conversion follows immediately upon regeneration.
OVER and OVER in Scripture, God shows that those who do not believe in the true God and the true gospel are lost.
> In fact, conversion is mediate while regeneration
> is immediate. This in the theological sense of
> "mediate" meaning 'with means' and "immediate"
> meaning 'without means'.
> So, basically, you got it backwards.
No I don't. Conversion is with means and regeneration is without means. And conversion IS and MUST BE an IMMEDIATE (in the time sense) result of regeneration, or else there would be regenerate people, whose hearts have been changed, who have been indwelled with the Holy Spirit, who have been given spiritual life, who believe in a false god and a false gospel. You, of course, believe in this monstrosity. Christians do not.
> "At conversion, the sinner is given KNOWLEDGE"
> Saving Knowledge ...not a seminary degree !
> You don't have to subscribe to TULIP at the
> instant of your conversion to be saved.
I couldn't care less about whether or not someone is able to name the doctrines of grace. What matters is THE GOSPEL. Got it? THE GOSPEL. THE GOSPEL is about the PERSON and the WORK of Jesus Christ. It's not some "higher knowledge" that only seminarians can understand. THE GOSPEL includes BASIC, FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS about the PERSON of Christ and the WORK of Christ. Get the PERSON of Christ wrong, and you don't believe the gospel. Get the WORK of Christ wrong, and you don't believe the gospel. Simple.
> Scripture nowhere teaches we must have perfect
> theological comprehension at the moment of our
Straw man. I'm not talking about "perfect theological comprehension." I'm talking about BELIEF OF THE GOSPEL. Got it? BELIEF OF THE GOSPEL. Am I sounding like a broken record? It's all about THE GOSPEL.
> Bro. Rat is pleased, though, that you've at least
> retreated from Full-Knowledge-Upon-Regeneration
> to the less erroneous Full-Knowledge-At-Conversion.
I haven't retreated at all. I do NOT espouse the view that there is full knowledge of all Bible doctrines ANY time. What I am saying (because the BIBLE says it) is that upon conversion (which is an immediate result of regeneration), God's people are given belief of the GOSPEL. What is the gospel? It is God's promise of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. For those who are interested, you can read a series of sermons on the gospel at www.outsidethecamp.org/sermons.htm .
> "What if I said this:
> 'Unregenerate people can't accept the deity of Christ. Yet,
> being regenerated DOESN'T mean you do ... only that you
> can and ultimately shall.'
> Would you agree with that statement?"
Okay, everybody, do you see this? Do you see DR's answer to this question? This shows that DR believes that there are REGENERATE people who do not believe that Jesus is God! Make note!
> Did the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43 have the
> slightest concept of Limited Atonement ? Yet, he
> was in paradise with Jesus that very same day !
Oh, the heretics love to talk about the thief on the cross as if it bolstered their position. I have written on this very subject. See www.outsidethecamp.org/letters72(1).htm .
By the way, I saw that some other posts on this list are talking about Hyper-Calvinism. TR's position is classic Hyper-Calvinism.
May God give ears to hear and eyes to see.
Marc D. Carpenter