Ransom:

==some of the stupidest stuff i've ever seen: outside the camp. These guys are so hyper-calvinist it makes real hyper-calvinistm look like billy freakin graham. According to their "heterodoxy hall of shame," historic believers like charles spurgeon or j. I. Packer or r. C. Sproul were/are not genuine christians - not merely because they are not five-point calvinists (they are), but because they believe it's possible for any non-five-point calvinist to be saved. (so salvation becomes a matter of what you know, rather than [as they would all affirm, i'm sure] who knows you.)

in fact a few years ago they even stopped calling themselves "calvinist" after becoming convinced that john calvin himself believed in a general atonement - a debatable question, and based on the evidence i've seen, i tend to believe he did - and assigned him to the hall of shame too.

As another hall of shamer, james white likes to say, it's sad when you draw the circle of fellowship so tightly that you wind up practically hopping on one foot just to stay inside . . .=
=

got2liv4him:

==what a bunch of knuckleheds...==

baptistkitty:

==wow, thats insane...==

jdlamps:

==this is both sad and ugly.==

john wesley:

==these guys are proof lsd prohibition is a losing proposition. They're clearly getting it and using it by the barrel.==

Well, hello there! I just found these posts (better late than never). I'm one of those stupid, insane, sad, ugly knuckleheads at Outside the Camp! It's interesting -- you guys sure can call people names, but where's the substance? Even the first post was wrong. You say that we judge people to be lost "because they believe it's possible for any non-five-point calvinist to be saved." Really? I'm not a Calvinist at all. So, according to your stupid logic, I would have to judge everyone unsaved who believes I am saved. Now THAT'S stupid.

And no, we don't believe that salvation is a matter of what you know. Salvation is not conditioned on any knowledge whatsoever. Salvation is conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ alone. It is the work of Jesus Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. Well, then, where does knowledge come into it? Here's where it comes into it: When God saves someone, He immediately causes that person to believe the true gospel.

As for James White, check out how I exposed his hypocrisy as he was writing against someone who believed that Mormons are saved: www.outsidethecamp.org/jameswhite.htm. His whole "drawing the circle of fellowship too tightly" nonsense collapses in on itself.

Why do we believe that Spurgeon, Packer, and Sproul were not saved when they made those heretical comments? Because it shows they did not believe the gospel. So if you want to call us stupid, insane, sad, ugly knuckleheads, that's fine -- but at least back up your name-calling with some substance. Just because we judge certain people to be unsaved isn't reason to call us names; I'm sure all of you judge certain people to be unsaved. You must give a non-stupid REASON why it is stupid for us to judge certain people unsaved. Then you'd look a little bit less stupid.
To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


Ransom:

==Well, then, where does knowledge come into it? Here's where it comes into it: When God saves someone, He immediately causes that person to believe the true gospel.

1. Upon what Scripture do you base your assertion that God "immediately causes that person to believe the true gospel"?

2. Please articulate the content of this "true gospel" that God immediately causes that person to believe.==

Sure - it's actually pretty simple, really. And the Scriptural support is pervasive. Let me give you an example:

2 Corinthians 4:3-6: "But also if our gospel is being hidden, it has been hidden in those being lost, in whom the god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the brightness of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them. For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves your slaves for the sake of Jesus. Because [it is] God who said, 'Out of darkness Light shall shine,' who shone in our hearts to [give the] brightness of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:3-6, LITV)

The gospel is hidden in the unregenerate, who have had their thoughts blinded so that they should not believe the gospel. Thus, we can conclude that all who do not believe the gospel are unregenerate, and all who believe the gospel are regenerate. Thus, there is no such thing as a regenerate person who does not believe the gospel. Thus, belief of the gospel must come immediately upon regeneration.

Here are some more passages:

2 Thessalonians 2:12: "that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness."

All unregenerate people do not believe the truth.

Mark 16:16: "The [one] believing and being baptized will be saved, And the [one] not believing will be condemned."

Everyone who believes will be saved, and everyone who does not believed will be damned.

John 3:18: "The [one] believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Everyone who believes is not condemned, and everyone who does not believed is condemned.

John 3:15-16: "that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Everyone who believes will not perish but have everlasting life.

John 5:24: Truly, truly, I say to you, The [one] who hears My Word, and believes the [One] who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Everyone who believes has everlasting life and does not come into judgment and has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40: And this is the will of the [One] sending Me, that everyone seeing the Son and believing into Him should have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Everyone who believes has everlasting life and will be raised up at the last day.

John 6:47: Truly, truly, I say to you, The [one] believing into Me has everlasting life.

Everyone who believes has everlasting life.

Acts 10:43: "To this One all the Prophets witness, [so that] through His name everyone believing into Him [will] receive remission of sins."

Everyone who believes receives the remission of sins.
Acts 13:39: "And everyone believing in this One is justified from all things which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses."

Everyone who believes is justified.

Acts 13:48: "And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Everyone who believes shows that he has been appointed to eternal life.

Romans 1:16: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to everyone believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek;"

To everyone believing, the gospel is the power of God to salvation.

Romans 9:33: "as it has been written, 'Behold I place in Zion a Stone-of-stumbling, and a Rock-of-offense, and everyone believing on Him will not be put to shame."

Everyone who believes will not be put to shame.

1 Thessalonians 2:13: "And because of this we give thanks to God without ceasing, that having received [the] Word of hearing from us, you welcomed [it as] of God, not [as] a word of men, but as it is, truly [the] Word of God, which also works in you, the [ones] believing."

The Word of God works in the ones believing.

1 John 5:1: "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. And everyone who loves Him who begets also loves the [one] who has been born of Him."

Everyone who believes has been born of God.

1 John 5:10: "The [one] believing in the Son of God has the witness in himself. The [one] not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness which God has witnessed concerning His Son."

Everyone believes has the witness in himself.

1 John 5:13: "I wrote these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of God."

Everyone who believes has everlasting life.

In the second part, you asked what is the content of this true gospel that everyone believes.

Romans 1:16-17 says that the gospel reveals the righteousness of God. What is this righteousness of God that the gospel reveals? We see the answer in Romans 3:21-26:

"But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those believing; for there is no difference, for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth [as] a propitiation through faith in His blood, as a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God, for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, for His being just and justifying the [one] that is [of] the faith of Jesus."

We then see in Romans 10:1-3 that those who are ignorant of this righteousness revealed in the gospel are going about to establish a righteousness of their own and are thus lost. (By the way, this again shows that all who are regenerate believe the gospel and all who are unregenerate do not believe the gospel; thus, belief of the gospel is an immediate fruit of regeneration.) And verse 4 again shows us the gospel: "For Christ [is] the end of Law for righteousness to everyone that believes." (Romans 10:4)

We also see a definition of the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4:

"But, brothers, I reveal to you the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, by which you also are being kept safe, if you hold fast the Word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you in the first place what I also received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised the third day, according to the Scriptures."

If any of you would like to know more about the gospel, I encourage you to read the series of sermons on the gospel at www.outsidethecamp.org/sermons.htm. Also, there is an article on Romans 10:1-4 at www.outsidethecamp.org/deadignor.htm.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


Book Man:

==Your group is a heretical group of Pharisees.==

Do you even know what a Pharisee is? Check out "What Is A Pharisee?"

Book Man:

==You are an arrogant, self righteous, pompous, boob.==

Cool. Lots of names, no substance. Not surprising.

Do you even know what arrogance is? Check out "True and False Humility."

Do you even know what self-righteousness is? I think "What Is A Pharisee?" covers that as well.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


AresMan:

==I agree that everyone who is regenerate immediately believes the simple gospel. The gospel is the good news that Christ died for the believer's sins according to the Scriptures and that He was buried and rose again according to the Scriptures. Whether one understands the substitutionary nature of the atonement fully or imputed vs. prevenient faith is irrelevent to regeneration. If one believes that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is sufficient to save all those who believe this fact, one is saved, and such is the fruit of regeneration.

Nothing in the verses you quoted define your version of a regressive, reciprocal gospel.=
=

What does "Christ" mean? What does "died" mean? What does "for" mean? What does "sins" means? What does "according to the Scriptures" mean? Words have meanings. Someone can mouth the words "I believe that Christ died for my sins according to the Scriptures" and be totally ignorant of the gospel.

Actually, you would find imputed righteousness if you looked. And you would find that there is no room for boasting when the true gospel is believed. And you would find a knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. You would find that all true believers know that it is the work of Jesus Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. Whatever one believes makes the ultimate difference between salvation and damnation is what one boasts in, what one glories in. If it is the work or effort of the sinner that one believes makes the difference between salvation and damnation, then that person does not believe the simple gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Christ alone.

Paul's words are the words of every Christian:

"But, no, rather I also count all things to be loss because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count [them to be] dung, that I might gain Christ and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness of Law, but through the faith of Christ, [having] the righteousness of God on faith." (Philippians 3:8-9)

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


AresMan:

==You are confusing the actual work of Christ on the behalf of His elect with their response to it.
When Jesus said:

Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

I don't think He had in mind that these tiny children would be calling out "God-hating Arminians and 'Calvinists.'"
==

The gospel is simple enough for even a child to understand. Contrary to the false accusations of our enemies, we do not require anyone to know what Calvinism or Arminianism is in order to call them brothers and sisters in Christ. I couldn't care less if someone knows the Calvinism-Arminianism debate. All I want to know is whether or not they believe the gospel. Little children and the thief on the cross are two commonly-used objections. For a response to the argument that the thief on the cross didn't know anything, see www.outsidethecamp.org/letters72(1).htm.

The truth is not complicated. Heresy is what is complicated. The truth that God saves all for whom Jesus died is not complicated. The truth that the death of Jesus Christ actually accomplished salvation is not complicated. What's complicated is a heresy like, "Jesus died for everybody, but Jesus's death didn't really do anything in and of itself, because there are people in hell for whom Jesus died, so what people need to do is accept what Jesus did for them, because if they don't accept what Jesus did for them, they will go to hell even though Jesus did the same for them as he did for everybody else, and even though Jesus loves everybody, he still sends those he loves to hell." Even a regenerate child can recognize this as a lie.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


AresMan:

==Ooo. Word games! Let me try!

Which is more complicated?

1. Salvation is by grace through faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

2. Salvation is by believing that Jesus Christ died only for certain individuals, that His death secured both their salvation and their faith, and that one who does not believe this, or claims to believe it but "speaks peace" to one who does not believe it or affirms the grace of God to one who does not believe it, really does not believe it.==

That would be a good one ... if it were true. But it's not an accurate representation of what we believe. Nice try, though.

#1 is a fair representation, although the words "death," "burial," "resurrection," and "Jesus Christ" would need to be defined according to the Scriptures.

#2 just goes off the trail into misrepresentations. Let's go through each one:

AresMan:

==Salvation is by believing that Jesus Christ died only for certain individuals,==

In #1, "faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ" includes the essential gospel doctrine that the work of Christ actually accomplished salvation. To say that Christ died means nothing unless Christ's death actually ACCOMPLISHED something. So every true believer of the gospel believes that the work of Jesus Christ actually demanded and ensured the salvation of everyone for whom He died.

AresMan:

==that His death secured both their salvation and their faith,==

Again, the accomplished work of Christ is an essential gospel doctrine. Without it, you have not gospel, no good news. The work of Christ secured ALL of salvation, from regeneration to final glory.

AresMan:

==and that one who does not believe this, or claims to believe it but "speaks peace" to one who does not believe it or affirms the grace of God to one who does not believe it, really does not believe it.==

Here AresMan not only steers off course and but goes over the embankment of false accusation. These things are not part of faith.

But let us consider:

Christian believes in the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ alone. He encounters someone who says, "I don't believe that Jesus Christ is God." Does Christian recognize that this person does not believe the gospel? Of course he does. How so? Because he knows what the gospel is, and that one essential gospel doctrine is the deity of Christ. He sees that this person does not believe in the deity of Christ and thus does not believe the gospel.

Now suppose Christian encounters someone who says, "I believe in the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ alone. I believe that Jesus Christ is God. But I have a brother in Christ who does not believe that Jesus Christ is God. I worship and pray with him and consider him to be saved, even though I know he is in error about the deity of Christ." Does Christian recognize that this person does not believe the gospel? Of course he does. How so? Because he knows what the gospel is, and that one essential gospel doctrine is the deity of Christ. He sees that this person does not believe that the deity of Christ is an essential gospel doctrine and thus does not believe the gospel.

Very simple. How about I simplify it even more:

Christian believes in the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ alone. He encounters someone who says, "I don't believe that Jesus Christ is God." Does Christian recognize that this person does not believe the gospel? Of course he does. How so? Because he knows what the gospel is, and that one essential gospel doctrine is the deity of Christ. He sees that this person does not believe in the deity of Christ and thus does not believe the gospel.

Suppose Christian encounters someone who says, "I don't believe in the God of Christianity. I'm a Muslim. I believe in the Allah of Islam. I believe that to worship Jesus Christ is idolatry." Does Christian recognize that this person does not believe the gospel?

Suppose Christian encounters someone who says, "I believe in the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ alone. I believe that Jesus Christ is God. But I have a brother in Christ who does not believe in the God of Christianity. He's a Muslim. He believes in the Allah of Islam. He believes that to worship Jesus Christ is idolatry. I worship and pray with him and consider him to be saved, even though I know what he believes as a Muslim." Does Christian recognize that this person does not believe the gospel?

It would not be an accurate representation to say that Christian believes that "salvation is by believing that Jesus Christ died only for certain individuals, that His death secured both their salvation and their faith, and that all who are Muslims, or who claim to believe the gospel but who 'speak peace' to Muslims or affirms the grace of God to Muslims, really does not believe it." The propositions included in what faith believes do not include anything about Muslims or anything about those who speak peace to Muslims. Yet there is no one who truly has faith in Christ who knows what Muslims believe who will speak peace to a Muslim. Got it?

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


dmcoe:

== They are too dumb to know that eventually they will have EVERYONE of our Christian forefathers on their Heterodoxy Hall of Shame, and they and a few no-name bird-brains will be the only true believers.==

Okay, let's see which one is dumb:

(1) Person 1 judges the spiritual state of the well-known "Christian forefathers" based on whether or not they believed the gospel.

(2) Person 2 judges the spiritual state of the well-known "Christian forefathers" based on their reputation as well-known "Christian forefathers" whether they believed the gospel or not.

Hmmmmm ... which one is "too dumb to know"?

Think about the true church down through history, especially since the closing of the canon. Up until very modern times, when anybody can publish anything, what did it take to be "well-known," especially published and distributed? It took two things: (1) You had to be popular, and/or (2) You had to have a lot of money. Think about those who preached the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ, uncompromisingly called all who confessed a false gospel and spoke peace to those who confessed a false gospel to be unregenerate, and did not fellowship with or endorse any of these people. Question 1: Were they popular? Question 2: Did they have a lot of money? We know that the answer to #1 was, in all cases, NO. They were the ones who were marginalized by the popular "church" of the time. They were called cultic, mean-spirited, judgmental, exclusivist, etc., etc. They were not part of the mainstream. They were outside the camp of self-righteous religion. Now just think of a theologian during this time -- a true preacher of the true gospel who was well-versed in theology. How would be become well-known if he were marginalized? How would he become well-known if he called the mainstream "church" a whore and a synagogue of Satan? How would anything he wrote be widely published and distributed? If he did write something and put it into print, would it get widely distributed? Of course not. The writings would die. How about reprinted over and over again like the works of the well-known writers? Of course not. Only the popular things got reprinted. Now for the answer to #2. It is possible that a true preacher had a lot of money -- certainly not through preaching but through money that was left to him, for example. Then he could use his own money (or the money of a wealthy Christian in his congregation) to publish and distribute. So I am not ruling out the possibility that a true Christian's works have been widely published. But this would have been a rarity. So my conclusion is that from the closing of the canon to the time when there was cheap printing and mass distribution, we don't know who the true "Christian forefathers" were. So to think that we have to have an extra-biblical list of true "Christian forefathers" whose books are now still in print is ridiculous. In fact, if they have remained popular down through history, then it puts up a red flag.

Why wouldn't people dare to call the well-known "church fathers" unregenerate? Because they are respecters of persons. They bow down to them. They serve them. It matters not if the well-known "church fathers" denied the gospel. They do not judge by God's standard alone; instead, they judge based on how famous or how respected these people were and are by the religionists of the day. This says a lot about them and their standard of judgment.

The truth is that it matters not whether the heretic is a well-known name or a no-name. If that person promoted damnable heresy, then that person was unregenerate at the time he promoted damnable heresy. We judge by God's standard alone, no matter how famous or how respected these people are by the religionists of the day.

To God alone be the glory,

Marc D. Carpenter


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