> Could you explain how the elect who die in infancy believe the
> propositions of the gospel?
Actually, the people who say that some regenerate persons do not believe the propositions of the gospel need to explain how the elect who die in infancy DO NOT believe the propositions of the gospel!
The elect who die in infancy believe the propositions of the gospel the same way any elect human believes the propositions of the gospel -- with the mind. And before anyone says, "but infants are at a developmental level in which they cannot understand such things," I will say that since the Bible makes no exceptions when it comes to the gospel (those who believe are saved, those who do not believe are lost), we know that if God regenerates an infant (or even an unborn baby), He causes them to believe the gospel. John the Baptist certainly understood propositions before he was born!
Soli Deo Gloria,
Hi, all. Here are some thoughts on infant salvation:
First, all true Christians believe Romans 10:3 -- all who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are unregenerate. No exceptions.
Thus, a true Christian can really only have one of two views on this subject, and they both relate to Romans 10:3.
The two views are these:
(1) Infants do not have the capacity to understand. Thus, since Romans 10:3 says that those who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are lost, then all infants are unregenerate.
(2) Infants do have the capacity to understand. Thus, according to Romans 10:3, the infants who believe the gospel wherein the righteousness of God is revealed are regenerate, and the infants who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are unregenerate.
I hold to #2. I believe that infants do have the capacity to understand. We have an example in the Bible of a person who had a less-developed brain than most people who are mentally retarded -- John the Baptist. John leaped because he understood.
For an infant to be saved, he would have to be under the sound of the TRUE gospel, of course. So when we're talking about the children of heathen and any others who have never heard the gospel, it is impossible for them to be saved.
> hi, marc can you please explain to me how a baby in the womb
> believes on his
> own.thank you very much steven j.
We have an example in Luke 1:40-44.
John, in the womb, leaped for joy out of an understanding of something.
Verse 40: Mary greeted Elizabeth.
Verse 41: John leaped in Elizabeth's womb.
Verse 42: Elizabeth says that Mary and Mary's child are blessed.
Verse 43: Elizabeth acknowledges that Mary's child is her Lord.
Verse 44: Elizabeth says, "FOR ..." What did Elizabeth say "FOR" for? It is
connected to verses 42 and 43. Elizabeth is saying, in effect, "Blessed is
Mary, and blessed is Mary's child who is my Lord, FOR my baby leaped in my
womb for joy." Elizabeth is saying that the REASON her baby leaped in her
womb for joy is because of the Lord. In fact, John's jumping is part of
what prompted Elizabeth to say that Mary and her son were blessed and that
Mary's son was her Lord.
> hi, marc their are no requirements for the elect salvation first God save
> elect salvation is of the Lord God word jonah 2:9 then God gives the
> elect believing repentance faith these don't originate from us God gives
> them to elect as a gift not ours God gave it to elect from God
> only. steven
Agreed. God gives the elect faith and repentance. No exceptions.
In the Old Testament, the enemies of Israel were the enemies of God. There were no enemies of Israel that were friends of God. There are many passages in which God commands Israel to utterly destroy its enemies, including men, women, and children, with no one left breathing in the city (e.g., see the book of Joshua). When God commanded Israel to destroy its enemies, He was not commanding Israel to destroy any of His friends. These heathens were without the gospel. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. The heathen infants were from families that never heard the gospel. The entire nations, including the entire families, were enemies of God. Note that the one who had faith (Rahab), with her household, who were in the midst of the heathen city, Jericho, were the only ones who were not destroyed (Joshua 6:17-24). Note also that God Almighty says that the curse of the Lord is in the house of the wicked (Proverbs 3:33). There is no blessing in that household. Everyone in that household is cursed. I see this as strong evidence that infants who die in the household of the wicked go to hell. Note also that in 1 Corinthians 7:14, the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul says that children who have two unregenerate parents are unclean. And note also that the wicked are estranged from the womb and go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies (Psalm 58:3).
Now, from all this evidence, I would conclude that the children of the wicked who die in infancy are the enemies of God, and they go to hell. I do not think anyone can come up with any evidence to back up their claim that all the children of the wicked without exception who die in infancy go to heaven.
<<This reminds me of the story of Jacob and Esau. Before either one was born, God said "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated". This was so that the purpose of God in election might stand. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". The death of infants is linked to the doctrine of God's mercy, and God's mercy is linked to the doctrine of election. Neither Jacob nor Esau had done anything good or bad. Neither one had heard the Gospel "IN THE WOMB"? I am not aware of any reformed theologians who teach such a doctrine. Babies who die in infancy or prenatally, are regenerated, not because they have heard the gospel in the womb, but because they are regenerated by the mercy and grace of God. Can God save without the gospel? and if not, doesn't that kind of limit His Sovereignty? God saves all the sheep, even the ones who have never heard the gospel message!
If you can show me some examples of people who have heard the gospel in the womb It would be greatly appreciated.
Hello, Earl -
Just because God loves a person before he is born doesn't mean that He goes against His Word when He saves someone. If God loves a person before He is born, He eventually brings that person under the preaching of the gospel, and that person believes the gospel. You asked, "Can God save without the gospel? and if not, doesn't that kind of limit His Sovereignty?" It is not a matter of can God do something; it is a matter of how God reveals that he does do something. This in no way limits His sovereignty. It is like asking, "Can God keep us alive without food? and if not, doesn't that kind of limit His Sovereignty?" Of course this does not limit His sovereignty by saying that we will die without food. God has chosen to save people in a certain way that glorifies Himself, and that is through the gospel. If a regenerate person is ignorant of the gospel, then this brings shame and dishonor to His Name. And speaking of limiting God's sovereignty, why can God not sovereignly cause a baby in the womb to hear and believe the gospel?
You wrote, "God saves all the sheep, even the ones who have never heard the gospel message!" Yet what does Jesus Christ say in John 10 about the sheep? Pay attention to the underlined words.
John 10:3 The doorkeeper opens to him, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls [his] own sheep by name, and leads them out.
John 10:4 And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes in front of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 But they will not follow a stranger, never! But [they] will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of the strangers.
John 10:14 I am the Good Shepherd, and I know those that [are] Mine, and I am known by the [ones that are] Mine.
John 10:16 And I have other sheep which are not of this fold. I must also lead those, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock, one Shepherd.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
An example of a person who heard the gospel in the womb was John the Baptist. He leaped for joy. What was he rejoicing about if he didn't believe anything? He was a sheep in the womb who heard the voice of Christ and followed Christ, believing the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone.
To God alone be the glory,
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