David said:

>My
> quick answer to "Which Jesus?" is: The same Jesus of the God who chooses
> and regenerates. Jesus gives them belief in Him even though they may
> have some other false notions about Him.


What does it mean to believe IN Jesus?

How can someone believe IN Christ and yet reject the doctrine OF Christ?

> Before, I said that the Arminian's inferior knowledge on the mechanics of
> Soteriology doesn't condemn him to hell. Are you now saying that to be
> saved one must first have a perfect Christology?

One must "first" have NOTHING -- there are no pre-conditions of salvation. God does not wait until a person has perfect Christology before He saves him; else He would save no one. The key is this: what does God CAUSE His people to believe upon regeneration?

>When a little child
> tells me he believes in Jesus, should I immediately smirk and doubt since
> the little kid couldn't possibly know who Jesus REALLY is (at least not
> like I know Him). Perhaps I should ask him: "And which Jesus is that!
> huh?" so that he can stammer: "Well uh, the same Jesus they taught me in
> Sunday school... the one who said' let the little children come unto me'


Regenerate children know more of Jesus than unregenerate adults. Regenerate children, even though they might not be able to articulate it, believe that their salvation was based solely on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ.

If a child was taught an Arminian jesus in Sunday School, then when he confesses that he believes in that jesus, it is evidence that he is lost.

> Here is the question that Clark so annoyingly avoided answering in his
> book "Faith and Saving Faith" and that is "what are the precise or
> minimum set of propositions one must believe in order for faith to be
> saving faith?" Since he didn't seem to know, might I suggest that God
> chooses and regenerates and gives faith using whatever propositional
> truth He chooses?


Yikes! So God could choose and regenerate and give faith using the proposition, "a vest has no sleeves"?? Or, if you wouldn't go that far and would say that it has to be a proposition from the Bible, would you say that God could choose and regenerate and give faith using the proposition, "And it came to pass, when Saul was returned from following the Philistines, that it was told him, saying, Behold, David is in the wilderness of En-gedi'"?? Or, if you wouldn't go that far and would say that it has to be a proposition about God from the Bible, would you say that God could choose and regenerate and give faith using the proposition, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"??

The Bible is clear what God uses in regeneration: THE GOSPEL. The gospel is "the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Romans 1:16).

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world and preach THE GOSPEL to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:15-16).

The gospel is not just any truth or any set of propositions. It is a specific message of how God is just to justify the ungodly based on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone.

> It is truly the OBJECT of our faith that saves, NOT a perfect knowledge
> of the object.


Who is saying that perfect knowledge of Christ saves us?

>And though belief in an object that is entirely false
> will not save, the muddled conceptions we attach do not nullify whatever
> REAL truth God opens our eyes to believe. It is the LORD who knows those
> who are His, even though we behold though a glass, darkly.

Every true Christian believes the true gospel. If one has a "muddled conception" of the person and work of Christ so that he thinks that some part of salvation is conditioned on him, then he believes in an idol.

> "Saving" faith is a misconception. What makes faith "saving" is the
> fact that it proceeds from a regenerated soul, believeing whatever truth
> God makes clear. And on whatever points it is unclear God will mature in
> time as He makes our faith to mature.


God causes His people to be clear about the gospel upon regeneration.

> Phil 3:15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And
> if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to
> you. (NIV). The gospel is much more than the 4 Spiritual Laws, or Seven
> steps to God etc. Let God do the saving and us not fail to preach the
> whole counsel of God. Who knows what truth He will use?

The truth God ALWAYS uses WITHOUT EXCEPTION is the gospel.

Soli Deo Gloria,

Marc


David said:

> Please describe to me the quality of the thief's knowledge. Then compare
> it to Paul who met Jesus on the road and was caught up to the third
> heaven, or of the disciples who were with him 3 years. Or describe to me
> the quality of a childs knowledge, say age 8, who hopes in Jesus to take
> away the bad things he did, but whose mentality can't grasp a lot of
> other qualitative things.


Paul, the saved thief, saved children, Abraham, Rahab, Abel, the Philippian Jailor, the Ethiopian Eunuch, etc., etc., all believed the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ. If any of them did not believe the gospel, they were lost (Mark 16:16). If any of them were ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel, they were lost (Romans 10:3).

--Marc


David said:

> Possibly there are those who even prevent those who would be entering
> heaven to enter and who themselves Mattt 23:13 don't enter because they
> lead away from simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ 2Cor 11:3
> and in some Gnostic way advocate a burdensome addition of "knowledge
> falsely called" to the gospel which only they themselves claim to have
> atrue handle on, 1 Tim 6:20 and have erred from the faith.


The SIMPLE and PURE gospel message is salvation conditioned totally on Christ. Anything other than this is NOT "simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ."

"Simplicity and purity" does NOT mean ignorance. It does NOT mean that someone has some mystical notion of Christ. It means believing the simple message of the gospel.

> I already proposed what Gordon Clark proposed (and John Robbins backed me
> up on this). The gospel is ALL of God's truth and we should preach all
> of it. But God is at liberty to regenerate whoever He wants and cause
> them to profess whatever truth He has revealed to them at that moment.


The gospel is ALL God's truth? If you believe this, then if you also believe Mark 16:16, you would have to say that anyone who does not believe ALL God's truth is lost.

> So it is possible that God can regenerate an atheist and his first and
> only immediate confession is "I beleive in God the Father almighty,
> maker of heaven and earth."


You believe that this man can know NOTHING of Christ's precious blood and still be regenerate.

> And here is my KEY POINT. I don't believe God is under an obligation to
> impart some crucial minimum subset of uncommunicated intuitive
> propositions AT THE MOMENT OF regeneration, though I believe God will
> eventually and infallibly bring his this former atheist to also assent
> to the rest of the proposition " ... and in Jesus Christ his only son
> our Lord." and much more.


This really shows where you're coming from. You believe that a regenerate person can have a Christ-less belief for a period of time.

The tired old "God is not under obligation" line doesn't hold water. God said that those who do not believe the gospel are damned (Mark 16:16). Thus, the sovereign God uses the gospel every single time to bring His people to Himself. Anything else casts shame and reproach on the honor of God's redemptive character.

Soli Deo Gloria,

Marc


David says:

<<You disagree and say we must understand the complete gospel before God will regenerate us to believe it.>>

No! I am NOT saying that we must understand the complete gospel BEFORE God will regenerate us to believe it! I am saying that understanding and believing the gospel are *immediate* results of regeneration.

You said that it cannot be proven that the results are immediate rather than days or weeks. But it CAN be proven from Scripture. Mark 16:16 says that those who do not believe the gospel are lost. Now, suppose in the "not immediate" scenario, someone is regenerated but does not believe the gospel for a few weeks. What does the Bible say about this man during the time he did not believe the gospel? It says plainly and clearly that he is LOST! This is solid proof.

--Marc


David said:

<<Please explain how you KNOW you were unregenerate before knowing certain truths yet regenerate after knowing other truths.>>

Those of us who are regenerated know this from God's Testimony. We know that before understanding and believing the gospel, we were unregenerate. We know that when we were ignorant of the righteousness of God, we were unregenerate.

<<When God opens your eyes to other wonderful truths will you then say you weren't regenerated prior to your new understandng?>>

There are "wonderful truths" that a Christian discovers after he is regenerated -- but these "wonderful truths" are not about the ground of our salvation. The "wonderful truth" about the ground of our salvation is given to us upon regeneration and conversion.

--Marc


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